Did the biarritz die for good reason..

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat M

Yes..  agreed.. but even with such a mild rendition,, you should hear some negative comments about how hard it can be!

Steve,

I believe that is one of golf's core problems today,
the desire to diminish the challenge.

And, unfortunately, many clubs soften the challenge because it's easier to do that than to listen to constant complaints about how hard (challenging) a feature or hole can be.

The difficulty is often caused, not by the feature or hole, but because the golfer is playing from the wrong set of tees.

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Bahto,

I recall that all of the bunkers were deeper.

However, that may be because I was much shorter when I first played there.

# 13 at The Knoll is a terrific Biarritz, with unusual internal putting surface contours

[George_Bahto]

Patrick_Mucci

I recall that all of the bunkers were deeper.

However, that may be because I was much shorter when I first played there.

hah .... funny

Pat, I just finished the bunker fronting 18 Friday !!  nice

[Jonathan Cummings]

Here's a wonderful Biarritz.  Anybody (besides George) know where this is?  (BTW - that trench is far deeper then it looks)

[Jonathan Cummings]

Sean - methinks there will be a few (like everybody) that disagree with you.  I'll let George weigh in on this hole's history and merits.  JC

[James Bennett]

I'd like to play a biarritz when it is firm and fast.  It looks less interesting if it is hit and stick though.

Any comment on how the trench is maintained during hot drought periods?  It would be ok with native soil greens, but challenging with a USGA style green.

James B

[John Kavanaugh]

Sean - methinks there will be a few (like everybody) that disagree with you.  I'll let George weigh in on this hole's history and merits.  JC

Jonathan,

I don't find that picture pleasing to the eye.  I asked my 11 year old son if he thought it was pretty and he said. "It's just straight."

[david h. carroll]

Jonathan--Not sure you want ME to let the cat out of the bag on where that awesome biarritz is

Sean--that picture was taken immediately after construction so the dirt path has been resodded, a number of those trees have been removed(RTJ popped them in back in the 50's) and what can you say about cart tracks....I hate them too, but it's better than having an asphalt path straight down to the green.

Oh, and that building is the pool house/fitness center....when the pin is in the back, you can see some great sights looking down at the pool

[CHrisB]

When both levels of a Biarritz green are cut as green surface, is the swale intended to be pinnable? I remember playing #9 Yale and thinking how fun it would be if the pin were in the swale but I didn't see any old cups cut there.

Who says its dead...

Yales still exists...there's a great one at Black Rock in Boston, Apache Stronghold, The Rawls Course, Arcadia Bluffs.

Jay,
I played The Rawls course several times earlier this year, and Apache Stronghold last week. Which holes on those courses are you claiming as having Biarritz greens?

[Michael J. Moss]

Tom Fazio built a full fledged Biarritz as his 7th hole at Hudson National. I can't tell you for certain if the green had the  traditional dimensions that would satisfy everyone's definition, but the swale, which was quite deep, is now gone.  

It was an interesting means to get the golfer around a large area deemed to be "environmentally sensitive." The back tee measured about 240-yards and went directly over the wetlands (the chasm?). The back tee was really only appropriate for the better player. It truly was a do-or-die proposition. The member's tee was to the right of the back tee, adjacent to the wetlands, and at only 150-yards, it hardly offered the Biarritz experience. Today there might be an intermediate tee, but I don't think it approaches the green head-on.

I thought the long poke was quite a challenge. The differnce in distance between the two tees was a shame. There was no way the shorter hitter could experince the roller coaster experience. Placing another tee closer to the green and on the same line was not possible due to the wetlands (or habitat, or whatever it is!).  

I can only speculate, but the swale was probably condemned out of hand as being too radical. Their probably was no discussion with the membership that gave the history of the hole's stretegy. The members probably never heard the word "Biarritz," and all the great ones that date back to Macdonald, Raynor and Banks.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Jay,

Where is the Biarritz at Black Rock? I can't picture it. There is one at Black Creek.

George,

How come you never let me play your Biarritz?

Anthony

[George_Bahto]

Tony - I do however remember one fine day in the Jag convertible with Donnie Beck in the front with me and you in that great stuffed into the (sort of) "back seat" - I laugh every time I think of it ......

That was just slightly funnier than the time I Picked up Tommy Nac from Friar's Head, literally stuffed him into the front seat of the same Jag convert, and off we were to NGLA .......... just as funny that day was as we were driving, still not far from FH, who  came driving from the opposite direction?  yep, Kenny Baskt ..... Tom got into a bit of trouble because he was "supposed" to be "working"   .....  hmmmmmm, Tommy "working" ? an interesting thought

 

[Scott Szabo]

Would the 16th at Castle Pines Golf Club be considred a biarritz?  I remember walking with group after group at the International muttering under their breath when the pin is on the front tier and their ball would disappear over the ridge, only to be found in the lower, center portion.  This would leave them with a difficult uphill then downhill putt, many of which would three-putt.

I realize its a Nicklaus design, which is not thought of highly in these parts, but I really loved the hole.

[Yancey_Beamer]

I'm aware of two modern Biarritz holes in this area.
Diamond Valley Golf Club,Hemet,California
Bill Martin/Art Magnuson -1998
The 9th hole.
Silver Oak Golf Course,Carson City,Nevada
Tom Duncan/Sid Salomon -1998
The 4th hole.(I believe)
Both were great fun and quite a challenge.
It's interesting that these holes were built by architects
who are not well known.
The Biarritz is not dead!