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Geoffrey Childs

Re:Did the biarritz die for good reason..
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2006, 12:31:24 PM »
John

I don't know the answer to that one.  Maybe you can search through all the old American Golfers issues for a third hand account in some old article  ;)

I don't know Styles very well but I have played a bunch of Van Kleek and I am most impressed.  His greens at Pelham and Split Rock are impressive and as bold and crazy as anything I have ever seen.  He used modified and maybe even better versions of double plateau for sure.

Sean Leary

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Re:Did the biarritz die for good reason..
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2006, 12:32:37 PM »


Sean: In played in the Mid-Am in Tennessee and I thought the hole at Black Creek was exceptional. Of all the Biarritzes I've played, that one was most similar to Yale's, which many think is the best this side of the Atlantic.  There is no denying the visual intimidation of the tee shot or the drama of watching the ball disappear into and reappear from the chasm. 99% of golfers can be wrong.




I agree completely and I am sure it is a great hole and never meant to imply otherwise.  I have never played a Biarritz that I can remember, but I am sure that I would think they are a lot of fun. I just think that I may be in the minority of golfers, that's all..Courses aren't going to be built for what 1% likes.

Tony Petersen

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Re:Did the biarritz die for good reason..
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2006, 12:53:25 PM »
Jeffrey Brauer did, what I thought, was a fantastic Biarritz at the Wilderness at Fortune Bay in NE Minnesota... Typical of my friends, they thought that it needed a windmill and a laughing clown ??? Bottom line is that a majority of players that I know look at elements of classic architecture as gimmicky, whether it's a blindshot par-3 like 17 at Blackstone, the fantastic 14th at Desert Mountain Outlaw, that I would dub a 1/2 Biarritz, or the reverse-Redan 4th at Outlaw :D
Ski - U - Mah... University of Minnesota... "Seven beers followed by two Scotches and a thimble of marijuana and it's funny how sleep comes all on it's own.”

Pete Lavallee

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Re:Did the biarritz die for good reason..
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2006, 01:49:48 PM »
JT,

Do you really think the swale in the Biarritz green represents the Bay? I frankly can't buy that, can you run a ball through a Bay? Can you play short of the Bay and bounce over? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it purely conjucture that the swale is representative of the Bay? I don't recall that CB was ever quoted as saying this was the case.

Several weeks ago Pat Mucci stated that the Valley of Sin couldn't be a very good feature because no one had replicated it. He challanged me to sight an example of a good VOS duplicate. At the time I replied that digging a ditch 3 feet deep in front of a green was a recipe for dissaster due to flooding issues. It then dawned on me that the only way to make a VOS work would be to have the bottom of it at ground level with the green raised to get the right effect. I think you would have to admit that the Biarritz swale is the one feature that very capably replicates the VOS.

Besides, I can't imagine C B MacDonald not using the VOS somewhere in his template library; he was in love with TOC and its' distinctive features. I believe that he incorporated the VOS in his Biarritz swale; although admittedly, I have no proof of the theory. But hey, it  sure sounds more plausible that what we have been told.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2006, 01:52:27 PM by Pete Lavallee »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Jim Thompson

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Re:Did the biarritz die for good reason..
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2006, 02:31:28 PM »
I do think the swale represents the bay and would remind you that CB and Co. didn't build the first one.  I think CB fell in love with the playability of the original, perhaps even because it was like the VOS.  As far as quoting archies perhaps one of our great researchers here can pull up Dunn's thoughts on the Biarritz design.  There is a great picture on page 148 of Uncle George's book as well as a sketch on page 150 that shows how the tees were moved over time.  I don't think its coincidence that the pond is in front of Yale's Biarritz or the many number of other hazards used prior to the run up on a full Biarritz or the front lobe on the halfs.  

Some, such as Piping Rock even used a hog back feature to deflect a longer run up to the front lobe forcing the famed push shot.  I can certainly understand how the VOS is associated with the swale given the common nature of a roll off.  Would we consider every pushup green to have incorporated a VOS given that the ball can roll back off the green?  George does, on a number of occasions, go on to reference the swale as a representation of the VOS but I think that connection is based upon Biarritz greens where only the rear portion is maintained as putting surface and the front and swale as fairway even stating that those with just the rear are considered “correct representations”.  (George, where did this come from?)  I think the change in approaching clubs led to the front sections being mown at green height as well.  The original intent was for these holes to be attacked with driver not six iron and concessions have been made over time.

I think Pat wanted to get you thinking and he did.  This however, is a reach that all too many of us put together because it’s so easy.  I find it funny that we always give the great plagiarist CB credit for the Biarritz rather than Dunn.  Perhaps Dunn incorporated the VOS into the Biarritz?  I don’t think that is the case though.  I think the visual of the bay and the hole within the hole concept got the layout to the dance and that the green playability is coincidence.
Jim Thompson

tonyt

Re:Did the biarritz die for good reason..
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2006, 02:54:44 PM »
The original Biarritz was on a course that like many others of its vintage, served a purpose that found itself usurped in time, and the land is now used for another purpose. A lack of practicality hurt MANY, not merely a few old courses.

That this practicality was entertained does not signify that the hole itself was innappropriate and "died". There are many reasons a course may become NLE, and it doesn't have to reflect on the architecture or any particular holes.

Therefore I'd say it is a thoroughly incorrect premise in this instance to say that a hole type "died".

Chris Moore

Re:Did the biarritz die for good reason..
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2006, 02:56:40 PM »

Quote

Who was building them from the end of Rayor's life to the beginning of this millennium.
Quote

Kite/Cupp put a Biarritz green in at the 4th hole (unreachable par 5 during the days I played it) at the Legends Club in Nashville.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Did the biarritz die for good reason..
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2006, 03:25:36 PM »

Quote

Who was building them from the end of Rayor's life to the beginning of this millennium.
Quote

Kite/Cupp put a Biarritz green in at the 4th hole (unreachable par 5 during the days I played it) at the Legends Club in Nashville.

I have played the hole at The Legends..If it is a biarritz I can Fosbury Flop like Dwight Stones.

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Did the biarritz die for good reason..
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2006, 03:28:17 PM »
The 2nd green at the Knoll in Parsippany is a great example of one strategically placed.....the one opportunity I had to play the course, I was on the opposite lobe from the pin....three putt.

At the time I thought it goofy, but now I realize the strategy involved......it is a wonderfull designed hole and green.

Neal_Meagher

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Re:Did the biarritz die for good reason..
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2006, 03:58:39 PM »
Permit me to be somewhat philosophical about the intent of Mr. Kavanaugh's thread.  

Couldn't one make the argument that the minimal usage of some template holes, such as the biarritz and the double plateau with all of its permutations, are due in large part to the overall diminution of sport and style brought on by war and depression?  Prior to the economic and personal sacrifices made by nearly all from the mid 1930's to the late 1940's golf design, as we all know here, was far from the predicitable and mundane that came about due to these more pressing matters of life and death.

Further, with post-war prosperity, and with the advent of televised golf and the likes of Arnold Palmer, many courses with their attendent round and flat greens with simplistic bunkering were built by the score to simply provide stock for the masses.  What went missing during all of this, in very simplistic terms, was whimsy, and an element of sporting excitement and diversity.  This was replaced in many ways by the "7,000 yard par 72" syndrome.

So, in many ways, we now find ourselves living through an important part of the lifeline of golf course design, one that can look back at the fonder parts of pre-war golf design and, at the same time, the poor ways that the game evolved in order to grow.  I suppose that I am asking the question of whether golf could have become the game we know today, that includes a larger player base, without the surfeit of mundane courses that sprouted like so many dandelions?  

If the answer if yes, then we are trying to make amends today for those mistakes, which leads to the instances stated here of some casual golfers seeing biarritz greens as only needing a windmill to be complete.  To quote the esteemed Mr. Huntley..."pity".

If the answer is no, that the simple flattish courses with plug and play features built in such large numbers like ranch houses weren't necessary for growth, then I would suggest that we are merely making up for lost time.  In this case, bring on the biarritz's and any other hole or green design that enforces strategic thinking and puts a premium on fun and whimsical features.  I feel that those of us lucky enough to help create courses for a living should feel an obligation to help erase the dulling of golf design on all courses, not just the high-end private club courses that have been the beneficiary of this neo-thinking of late.
The purpose of art is to delight us; certain men and women (no smarter than you or I) whose art can delight us have been given dispensation from going out and fetching water and carrying wood. It's no more elaborate than that. - David Mamet

www.nealmeaghergolf.com

John Kavanaugh

Re:Did the biarritz die for good reason..
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2006, 05:18:48 PM »
I'm always thrilled when Neal comes out to post...Thanks, I think your answer was solid.  My only concern is that when the intellectuals run the zoo often the animals don't like what they are being fed.

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Did the biarritz die for good reason..
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2006, 08:58:58 PM »
Holy smokes - another Biarrtiz thread .... and John, you said it DIED???????

before I show you MY Biarritz a word about the swale:

early on there was reference to the Biarritz hole as the "Valley of Sin" hole, to me a clear reference to 18-St A but the one I like best when other architects called the Biarritz

     "Macdonald's Folly"      


so here is MY OWN Biarritz    and it's a beauty



and I drive it every day - it's my "work" car
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Aaron Katz

Re:Did the biarritz die for good reason..
« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2006, 09:59:34 PM »
John Kavanaugh,

Assuming you've played there, do you consider the 4th hole at Dell Urich in Tucson a Biarritz green?  Can you imagine another green form that could present so much fun and so many options on that hole?  I consider it a Biarritz, and it shows that the Biarritz green form might be the most versatile out there -- just a slight tweak in the angle at which is sits to the fairway and/or tee has a marked difference on what type of shot is called for and what type of shot the player who has missed the green might have coming back.

Chris Moore

Re:Did the biarritz die for good reason..
« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2006, 10:26:16 PM »

Quote

Who was building them from the end of Rayor's life to the beginning of this millennium.
Quote

Kite/Cupp put a Biarritz green in at the 4th hole (unreachable par 5 during the days I played it) at the Legends Club in Nashville.

I have played the hole at The Legends..If it is a biarritz I can Fosbury Flop like Dwight Stones.

You must really be able to elevate.   :)  Seriously, if that is not a Biarritz, what is it?

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Did the biarritz die for good reason..
« Reply #39 on: December 01, 2006, 11:23:53 PM »
Chris,

One could make the case that the 4th at Legends is more of a double-plateau than biarritz, given the large pinnable mid-section.  I've referred to it as a stretched biarritz in the past.  

It is fun to picture Barney in those short satin shorts, however.

There's a genuine biarritz, perhaps two but it's been a while, at a course in nearby Murfreesboro whose name escapes me (Indian Hills?).

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Jay Flemma

Re:Did the biarritz die for good reason..
« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2006, 12:05:30 PM »
Who says its dead...

Yales still exists...there's a great one at Black Rock in Boston, Apache Stronghold, The Rawls Course, Arcadia Bluffss.

I'm gonna guess that some hole templates go in and out of vogue.  Thannks to Doak and Silva and other architects who ove recreating template holes and greens, we are seeing a nice resurgance.

I love the biarritz!  Biarritz...***singingThis is not just your father's Oldsmobile!***

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Did the biarritz die for good reason..
« Reply #41 on: December 03, 2006, 07:47:42 AM »
JakaB,

I believe it died for all of the wrong reasons.

I attribute it's demise to the following.

1   It was too difficult of a hole for every level of golfer.

2   It was easily recognizeable, and as such, could never be
     claimed as an original hole

3   It was heavily manufactured, costing money.
    The Great Depression may have sounded its death knell

4   Drainage may have been an impediment.

5   It was difficult to maintain

6   It's presentation was always questioned.
     Should both tiers be maintained as putting surface ?
     Or, just the rear tier ?

The 13th at The Knoll is a terrific Biarritz, with some wrinkles in the contouring of the putting surface.

It's a very demanding hole where a PAR usually wins.

I'd like to see more of them, especially with tees only slightly elevated such that the approach can be run up to the rear tier, as opposed to the highly elevated tee, such as Yale's.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Did the biarritz die for good reason..
« Reply #42 on: December 03, 2006, 07:52:27 AM »

Fair enough. I was hoping that you would not think them poor golf holes.  They died for a time because the template hole school of design died for a while with Banks.


How can you explain the continued love affair with the redan type hole if the above explains the death of the biarritz.


I don't know if that's an accurate statement, or even a true statement.

What Redans were constructed from the end of the depression to 1990 ?

I think Redans are viewed in much the same light as Biarritz's by the majority of golfers.
[/color]


Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Did the biarritz die for good reason..
« Reply #43 on: December 03, 2006, 08:10:02 AM »
 8)

I know nothing is ever simple..  a variety of factors is always at play.. but saying a design died is too provocative.. extreme.

NONE built in what period??  
None worth talking about or none recognized..

The folly of the idea and the proferred conspiracy theories so far..

Is this a "B" feature type green?  Its at end of par5.. Drainage to photo right of swale, fronting trap to left seen in approach



A normal man approch shot view.. can you draw it onto the front ledge? Can you stick it onto the back ledge?



« Last Edit: December 03, 2006, 08:16:47 AM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Did the biarritz die for good reason..
« Reply #44 on: December 03, 2006, 08:33:11 AM »
Steve Lang,

Compared to Yale, Piping Rock and The Knoll, those pictures reflect a mild concession to the Biarriz principle.

Admirable, to say the least, but, noone is designing and building the real deal with its dramatic features anymore.

However, even as a mild concession, it's a unique green and challenge.

More should be built.

Steve Lang

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Re:Did the biarritz die for good reason..
« Reply #45 on: December 03, 2006, 08:48:44 AM »
 8)
Pat M

Yes..  agreed.. but even with such a mild rendition,, you should hear some negative comments about how hard it can be!
« Last Edit: December 03, 2006, 08:50:11 AM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

George_Bahto

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Re:Did the biarritz die for good reason..
« Reply #46 on: December 03, 2006, 09:37:12 AM »
"you should hear some negative comments about how hard it can be"

 ............ but isn't most of that because you are in essence playing to one of two small greens ??

As far as I have been able to tell all Biarritz hole built by Raynor and Banks had a single tee and I can back that up with my collection of original scorecards (thank you USGA Library).

The Knoll's Biarritz had 2 additional tees built by the owner of the club during the 1940's thru 1960's.

The present middle tee is usually set at 185 yard or so and it plays more "comfortably" at that distance but even at that yardage, considering the features on the green, you're pretty pressed to make par ......  you know the old story "hey, I’ll take a 3 on the hole and let's move on".

From the tips and with a pin way back the hole is over 250 yards long and if you miss the green the falloff to the right is about 12 feet, much shallower on the left, so the hole from the tee is very intimidating and you often find a change in your swing because of it.

I'm hoping to strip the Biarritz bunkers this year if the weather holds a little longer and am very curious if I will find the bunkers even deeper than they now are like I’ve found on some of the other greenside bunkers.  The Redan bunker had been filled in with about 5 feet of sand - it’s now a “pit”.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Adam Clayman

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Re:Did the biarritz die for good reason..
« Reply #47 on: December 03, 2006, 10:10:04 AM »
Isn't it possible the reason for it's birth, are the same as the reason for it's death (apparent to a few)?

Does anyone know the justification for it's birth? Respecting the VOS?

My theory would be more practical (and is pure specualtion).

Could the Biarittz have a more practical reason for it's inception?

Pre-irrigation systems, wouldn't the swale stay greener longer, during drought conditions, giving one a small strip of green grass to putt on?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

John_Cullum

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Re:Did the biarritz die for good reason..
« Reply #48 on: December 03, 2006, 10:17:48 AM »
In my opinion, one of the most accurate assessments ever uttered on this website follows:

"Re:Do trees make golf more fun..
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2005, 10:25:57 am »    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Barney -

I dare say that the ball that hits the front of the Biarritz, disappears in a coy fashion down in the swale, and reappears next to the back pin is the GCA equivalent of the unicorn . . . or perhaps just a shot that has been wickedly skulled. "

Michael Moore
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Kyle Harris

Re:Did the biarritz die for good reason..
« Reply #49 on: December 03, 2006, 10:20:18 AM »
The Biarritz is arguably one of the most flexibile holes in terms of setup/course conditions and the desired level of challenge a tournament committee or super wants to put into the hole in that particular day.

How many holes have someone hitting a high 7-iron one day and a low hooking long iron the next?