Did the biarritz die for good reason..

[John Kavanaugh]

When I take off my historian or novelty cap the biarritz feature starts to look stupid on many levels.  Did it deserve the death it met.  Is its current comback simply a response to our current system that caters more to the intellectual than the everyday player.

[Bob_Huntley]

Yes.

Bob

[Mike Hendren]

NO.

I would rather play a shot from any distance into a biarritz than any other type green complex.  

Needless to say, I am not an intellectual.

Mike

[John Foley]

John,

What was the reason that the Biaritz died?

Did it die or was it just on En- Vouge and now it is?

[Geoffrey Childs]

John

Please list for us the biarritz holes you have played and tell us why you seem not to like it.  After you do that I'll mention the many reasons I find a well made biarritz to be fun as heck to play.

[Sean Leary]

Probably.

99% of golfers will think of it at goofy golf.  A buddy of mine played in the Midam at Honors/Black Creek and when I asked him about BC, the first thing he talked about was the "dumbest hole I've ever seen", which was of course the Biarritz there..

The other reason is no one pronounces Biarritz correctly.  

[Bob_Huntley]

As much as I like playing them, I feel that when introduced they were considered affectations. Did Tom Morris et al ever design a hole with one?

Bob

[Mike Hendren]

The aerial game has compromised the biarritz.  My fondness for it is likely attributable to the fact that I hit the ball very low with not much spin.  That makes it fun to chase to the back level (will my ball reappear?), and a real challenge to hold the front level (will my ball disappear?).

I find them most fun from 50 to 100 yards out.

Mike

[John Kavanaugh]

John

Please list for us the biarritz holes you have played and tell us why you seem not to like it.  After you do that I'll mention the many reasons I find a well made biarritz to be fun as heck to play.

Geoffrey,

The only classic biarritz I have multiple times is the 2nd at St. Louis CC.  I think it is a great hole and one of the finest par threes that I have ever played.  I'm not going to call every dip in a green a biarritz and go through the trouble of listing those.  Am I wrong in my intitial premise that the feature did die at one time and is now only making a comeback.  Why it died I can only guess but I don't think it was because it is fun to play on an occasional basis.

John Foley,

Please submit this question again in a more simple way that I may understand.  I looked up En-Vouge and it came up as a non word.  The question: "Did it die or was it just on En- Vouge and now it is?"

[ForkaB]

Neither Macdonald nor Raynor nor Banks ever designed a "Biarritz."

The ones that MacRayBankophiles adore were bastardized "Chasms."  Death is not the proper word as they were all still-born.  Stupid concept, anyway.  Guys who went to or adore Yale might disagree, but that is their burden........

[Mike_Sweeney]

Richard,

Are you saying that there is not any Painswickian attributes in our beloved Biarritz's?

[Mike_Young]

I think the Biarritz was a better design with/for slower green speeds....

[Jerry Kluger]

It died because it was too expensive to maintain:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1959-Cadillac-Eldorado-Biarritz-Convertible-Classic_W0QQitemZ330056399715QQihZ014QQcategoryZ6147QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The fins made it impractical.

[Brad Klein]

I don't get the premise that the Biarritz hole died. What's the basis for this?

[Pete Lavallee]

Did Tom Morris et al ever design a hole with one?

Bob

Bob,

My feeling is that the Biarritz is an interpertation of TOC's Valley of Sin, so I would say yes he did!

[Jim Sweeney]

John: In what ways dies the Biarritz seem stupid?

Sean: In played in the Mid-Am in Tennessee and I thought the hole at Black Creek was exceptional. Of all the Biarritzes I've played, that one was most similar to Yale's, which many think is the best this side of the Atlantic.  There is no denying the visual intimidation of the tee shot or the drama of watching the ball disappear into and reappear from the chasm. 99% of golfers can be wrong.

Bob: I can't answer your question; my question is, why would it matter what Old Tom did? Should architectural innovation have stopped with him?

[Bob_Huntley]

Brad,

I have no idea of the answer but how many courses built between 1930 and 1980 incorporated a Biarritz hole in its design?

Bob

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't get the premise that the Biarritz hole died. What's the basis for this?

Who was building them from the end of Rayor's life to the beginning of this millennium.

[Bob_Huntley]

Bob: I can't answer your question; my question is, why would it matter what Old Tom did? Should architectural innovation have stopped with him?

No, but we are endlessly discussing the attributes of the old masters and surely some of the things that we find so appealing in current design originated with him.

Bob

[Geoffrey Childs]

John

Please list for us the biarritz holes you have played and tell us why you seem not to like it.  After you do that I'll mention the many reasons I find a well made biarritz to be fun as heck to play.

Geoffrey,

The only classic biarritz I have multiple times is the 2nd at St. Louis CC.  I think it is a great hole and one of the finest par threes that I have ever played.  I'm not going to call every dip in a green a biarritz and go through the trouble of listing those.  Am I wrong in my intitial premise that the feature did die at one time and is now only making a comeback.  Why it died I can only guess but I don't think it was because it is fun to play on an occasional basis.

John

Fair enough. I was hoping that you would not think them poor golf holes.  They died for a time because the template hole school of design died for a while with Banks.

 Bogey -If you think that the aerial game helped to kill the concept then you have never sat and watched teh women play the hole with fairway metals and drivers from the up tee. Its a joy to watch their well played shots hit the front or the downslope of the swale and chase up to a back pin.

Furthermore, even for those who have the strength to use an aerial approach (a good many men today are included) you have to hit a shot to the correct level and on the green or else you are faced with unique and very difficult putts, chips, pitches or bunker shots.  To discount just how much fun and how hard those shots are and to call them goofy or gimicky is to either take the game way too seriously or you have not played the hole enough to appreciate its qualities.

Bogey- you would love the 10th at Erin Hills if you like short approaches into biarritz greens.

[Jim Thompson]

Pete,

Do you really believe that a Biarritz in an interpretation of the valley of sin?  Granted I wasn't there, but it seems to me that the origin of the Biarritz green was the landform of the tee shot over the bay.  I can't help but think Willy saw the huge drop down to the bay and thought it would be neat to make a green that reflected the entire hole ala high low high hole merits high low high green.  I think CB liked the playability and incorporated as much as possible scewing our understanding of the hole origins.  Perhaps any hole that has a green which, to use the musical term, recapitulates the overall hole should be a Biarritz, no?

Cheers!

JT

[John Kavanaugh]

Fair enough. I was hoping that you would not think them poor golf holes.  They died for a time because the template hole school of design died for a while with Banks.

How can you explain the continued love affair with the redan type hole if the above explains the death of the biarritz.

[Jim Sweeney]

Bob:

Fair enough, and we should be discussing these old guys if we're goign to learn (and I have a lot of learning to do) about GCA.

My guess as to the answer to the original queastion is that McDonald, Raynor, and Banks were very successful with there template driven designs and their competitors and those that came later were not interested in doing copycat work.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Fair enough. I was hoping that you would not think them poor golf holes.  They died for a time because the template hole school of design died for a while with Banks.

How can you explain the continued love affair with the redan type hole if the above explains the death of the biarritz.

The biarritz almost has to look constructed and artificial.  The redan can look artificial but it can look natural.  I would hazard a guess that the redan-type holes built today by the more minimalist designers all look natural and well fit into the land.  The ones at Pac Dunes, Hidden Creek and others do.

That is my best answer to your question

[John Kavanaugh]

Geoffrey,

I was leaning more towards wondering why an interim type architect like Wayne Stiles loved the redan and skipped the biarritz.  Stiles did seem to build many Raynor like features into his greens but I have yet to see even a mini-biarritz in his portfolio.