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Scott Witter

Blood Lines or Earning Your Stripes??
« on: December 02, 2006, 10:32:50 AM »
Ian Andrews latest 2 posts on the "how hard can it be" thread made me think about something I have always wondered about.

Are the architects who made it on their own merits, historically and modern, irregardless if they worked for someone along the way, through passion, never ending hours of hard work, little to no pay and a commitment that wouldn't end, 'better' than the architects who made it through the ranks on Blood Line from the family?  Should the Jones brothers really be GCA's?  Would they have been better at something else...how about the Dye family?  others?

Ian is right in many ways about the fact that there is a lot to it and to really succeed must have the stomach and stamina to see it through despite remarkable odds that most would walk away from in a heartbeat.  My reply on that post still stands...I do think there are many people out there who could get the job done and have the inherent skills (they just don't know it), but as Ian, Tom D and Jeff B noted, there are many components that must be in place internally and externally in order to be sucessful and good at it.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Blood Lines or Earning Your Stripes??
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2006, 10:48:53 AM »
Scott,

Its a free country, isn't it?  There are many businesses in all fields where the father passes the reigns to their children.  To answer your implied question, I don't know of any genetic reseach that shows off spring tend to have the same talents as parents, even though it would seemingly happen more often than random talent pool in the general population.  

The GCA biz has a lot of father son combos.  Other successes, like Fazio, descend from a lineage of money connections.  Still others, like JN, create their own fame through other means.

My real gca hero model was Art Hills who rose to the top without any of those favored connections that were a springboard for others.  Tom Doak nicely fits that role this decade.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Scott Witter

Re:Blood Lines or Earning Your Stripes??
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2006, 11:04:12 AM »
Jeff:

"There are many businesses in all fields where the father passes the reigns to their children."

True, and other than your vote of Art Hills, you really haven't answered my question...implied or not ;)

Who do you think is the "better" architect, the 'lafamilia man' or the 'get err done! grinder...24/7' guy?

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Blood Lines or Earning Your Stripes??
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2006, 11:22:10 AM »
I'll never forget Desmond Muirhead's words when asked what was wrong with the architecture of the Jones Brothers. He usually said this as serious as can be too: "Bad Breeding."

Billy Bell Jr. never had a thing on his much more talented father. Infact if we do see some interesting Bell Jr. work, there is a possibility much of it can be attributed to his mother whom I'm told helped Billy Jr. route his courses once his father passed on. She must have learned a thing or two for years helping her husband who helped not only George Thomas, but Willie Watson, A.W. Tillinghast and others...

Scott addresses a good point here though, and who is one name architect who produces GREAT golf course  designs of his own merit, that has exceeded his paternal influences?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Blood Lines or Earning Your Stripes??
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2006, 11:58:40 AM »
Scott,

I mused as to whether real talent passes to a generation to answer your real typed question of whether the second generation Dyes and Jones should be golf course architects. Tommy sort of addressed the talent part for the older generations - Bell and Maxwell were two who not as talented as their fathers, by general acclamation.  And, to continue my other businesses line of thought, the stereotype of the kids who take over sucsessful businesses of any kind is that they run it into the ground, probably because they never had to struggle through the tough times to form the business like their fathers did.  

Is the fact that the Jones and Dyes are in business for themselves 20-30 odd years (and maybe even a few years that weren't so odd....... ;D) testament to the fact that they aren't part of that stereotype, or is there something about the gca biz that is generally different than others?

My sympathies would naturally lie with those of us who got in the field the hard way, and with passion.  However, when you talk to Rees or Perry Dye, they have fond remembrances of going to job sites with their famous fathers, much as we might have gotten our passion for golf itself by playing with our fathers. So, I can't discount the fact that they may have the passion, and are not mailing it in as part of their "birthright" as members of the Lucky Sperm Club.

I guess the answer in the question is how are their courses ranked?  Certainly, Rees is coming close to his famous father in well recieved (if not here, then elsewhere) courses and redos.  Its a complicated question, because starting out as a famous gca like Rees did probably nets you better sites, clients, budgets and even magazine rankings, especially when they started, and there were fewer journalists going to really see what is out there.

All I know for sure out of all of this is that it is sure tough to get anywhere in the biz w/o those connections........which limits reasonably talented gca's from getting the shots at the best jobs and even further demonstrating their talents.  So, it seems sort of self reinforcing, and thus even more refreshing when one of the unknowns or out of the loopers does break through to the general consciousness of the public or even golfers.

Sorry for the topic drift, but one reason I like the GD and GW rankings that specifically break out areas for golfers to evaluate is that I think I fare better than in general magazine rankings, like Golf where a few "experts" generally rank courses.  If you are trynig to build your rep on good work (which Art Hills always said was his only formula) then having someone try to break down a course that way is, IMHO, more condusive to a course being ranked fairly than a general ranking.  I hope that some rater looks at the various features at, say, the Quarry and says to himself, "Wait a second, that really is as good or better than the last famous guys course I rated."
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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