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Michael Ryan

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Best Intact designs? Or closest to?
« on: November 30, 2006, 12:34:04 PM »
GCA'ers,

Took advantage of the unseasonable weather in the NYC area yesterday and played at Upper Montclair CC in Clifton, NJ.  A Tillinghast design with an RTJ re-do at some point.  While playing the 1st hole of the East course, my host told me that this was one of only 3 holes of the 27 that were not touched, making them original Tillie holes.  

I got to thinking, with so many of the classic courses having been touched up by various architects...what are the best examples of the Ross's, Tillie's, MacKenzie's (as examples)work?  Any of their courses (or other great classic arcitects) touched less than others?  Would be interested to hear the thoughts.

Greg Holland

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Re:Best Intact designs? Or closest to?
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2006, 01:36:00 PM »
Last week, I had the opportunity to visit Mimosa Hills CC in Morganton, NC.  It is a Donald Ross course that Kris Spence restored a few years ago.  The pro, Dan Dobson, who could not have been nicer, said, "sometimes not having any money is a good thing."  As a result, they literally had never touched the course.  By all accounts, the restoration (based on the original drawings and aerial photos) was terriffic.  Billy Joe Patton grew up there. The course was very interesting, and the setting and views were beautiful.  In particular, I liked the par fives -- numbers 3, and especially 12 and 14 (which had awesome cross bunkers) looked really good; the par 3's were challenging and varied; and Hole 5 was really unique, with mounds along the left of the fairway (not unlike those shown on the current thread about Ross mounds), but into the top of which Ross cut pot bunkers.  The view from 15 tee was awesome -- with several mountains prominently in sight.  The bunkers were narrow and looked great, but difficult.  The greens were contoured and interesting, but certainly not inverted saucers or other stereotypes.  In my limited visit, the club also seemed like a good one.  Mr. Dobson told me that about 48% of their rounds this year were walked (and everyone I saw playing that day was walking).  I hope to go back and play it someday.  

J_McKenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Intact designs? Or closest to?
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2006, 04:18:39 PM »
This has been brought up in another thread, but we are currently working on the Ross designed Brunswick CC in Brunswick, Ga.  Basically a small break-even club that has never had the money to spend on the golf course other than the installation of an irrigation system and partial cart path system since it first opened in the late 30's.  I believe the greens may have been regrassed in the 60's.  It is truly an untouched Ross course.  A good example of where a lack of funds has been a good thing.

Greg,

Mimosa Hills is a really good golf course and one that is a lot of fun to play.  I mentioned it in another thread yesterday which asked about narrow golf holes and #12 certainly fits the bill.  Play there if you get the chance.

John

Michael Ryan

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Re:Best Intact designs? Or closest to?
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2006, 04:37:51 PM »
Interesting that they are both Ross courses.  My parents live near Wilmington, NC, what cities in NC are these courses close to?  I would love to check them out....

David Stamm

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Re:Best Intact designs? Or closest to?
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2006, 04:52:21 PM »
Michael, I haven't played there, but I've heard that Valley Club is more or less as Mackenzie designed it. From speaking w/ Wayne Morrison, Kittansett is virtually the same as when it was first laid out. He has told me that the course today is as shown on the blueprints.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Greg Holland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Intact designs? Or closest to?
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2006, 04:54:15 PM »
Mimosa Hills is in Morganton, NC (an hour and a half west of Greensboro out I-40).  

Brunswick CC is in South Georgia, near St. Simons Island.

Cape Fear CC, a Ross course in Wilmington, was just restored/renovated as well.  Don't know how much it had changed over the years.  The Wilmington Muni is a good Ross course as well (restored a few years back).  

mike_malone

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Re:Best Intact designs? Or closest to?
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2006, 05:10:43 PM »
 Rolling Green is very close. First of all, the routing is 100% intact. That is saying something. Secondly, the green sizes are virtually the same. Thirdly, only one green surface has been even  changed (#16).The number and placement of the bunkers is in the 80+% neighborhood.

  As we continue to return to the 1930's tree positions we are approaching close to  that point in time.

   The tees are the part of the original concepts that fall behind the other areas, not because they have been moved back , which Flynn planned for, but because it has not been done with Flynn in mind until some examples recently.

   If we can make the bunkers look like they should, get the tees looking "Flynnish", adjust some of the fairways, make the cart paths less visible , and finish the tree work we could be among the finest examples of Flynn's work. That is doable and would be quite an accomplishment.
AKA Mayday

Tom_Doak

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Re:Best Intact designs? Or closest to?
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2006, 07:31:15 PM »
I believe that Royal Melbourne (West) and Crystal Downs are the closest to untouched MacKenzie courses.  All of the work at Pasatiempo and at The Valley Club has been done with the pretext of getting back to MacKenzie's original design, but a lot of construction has been done as part of that effort so "untouched" is not the right word.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Best Intact designs? Or closest to?
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2006, 10:00:31 PM »
Michael Ryan,

The GSP was mostly responsible for the majority of the altering of Upper Montclair.

Nearby, Mountain Ridge is mostly intact.

Montclair's 4th nine is fairly intact also.

Michael Ryan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Intact designs? Or closest to?
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2006, 09:27:50 AM »
Patrick,

That brings up another possible thread subject.  What great golf courses would still exist if not for "eminent domain"...I know I have heard about a few on Long Island that are no longer around.



A.G._Crockett

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Re:Best Intact designs? Or closest to?
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2006, 12:21:24 PM »
Mimosa Hills is in Morganton, NC (an hour and a half west of Greensboro out I-40).  

Brunswick CC is in South Georgia, near St. Simons Island.

Cape Fear CC, a Ross course in Wilmington, was just restored/renovated as well.  Don't know how much it had changed over the years.  The Wilmington Muni is a good Ross course as well (restored a few years back).  

Wilmington Muni is probably pretty close after the bunker restoration a few years back. It also probably plays more like Ross intended than most because the city leaves it as dry as possible without killing the grass, which is a delight.  There is a good article about it in the course profile section here.

Wilmington CC, which I have not seen since it recently reopened, is something of a hybrid, as there has been at least some change to the routing from what Ross did.  Kris Spence has reportedly done a loving and exemplary job on the restoration of the course in so far as that was possible.

What about Southern Pines?
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

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