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Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
What would you never copy?
« on: December 01, 2006, 05:34:31 AM »
A question for the architects:

If an opportunity presented itself, you would probably be happy to include a Redan in a design, but would you ever consider a Road Hole, a St Andrews-style double green, a Biarritz, or.....?  
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:What would you never copy?
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2006, 06:23:58 AM »
Mark:

The one thing I don't think I'll ever build is a double green.  At St. Andrews they evolved for historical reasons, but on any new project, it would be more economical to put in two separate greens.  I think any modern double green is a marketing gimmick.
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Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What would you never copy?
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2006, 07:56:54 AM »
Tom,

Do you see the replica "New Course" at Grand Cypress as a marketing gimmick? If so, how will "Old MacDonald" not be seen as such, even though it is a collection of replicated themes?

Joe
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Scott Witter

Re:What would you never copy?
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2006, 08:46:14 AM »
Tom:

Do you think the double green of 9 & 18 at the new St. Andrews course by David Kidd is a marketing gimmic?
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tonyt

Re:What would you never copy?
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2006, 03:13:26 PM »
Can anyone nominate a modern double green that enhances the quality of either or both holes specifically because the double green exists?

Even if copying some TOC concepts such as the out and back routing, the practical and obvious modern version would separate the green complexes even if the holes ended near to each other. TOC's exists partially because they are from an era of less formulaic definition and more organic evolution.

Can't speak for the architects, but what seems to be a very good hole that I would hate to be asked to replicate would be Sawgrass #17. Like TOC's double greens, some things work because they are unique a lot better than if they are copied.
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Ian Andrew

Re:What would you never copy?
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2006, 05:38:32 PM »
Mark,

A very good idea for a thread.

I agree with the others on island greens and double greens, both smack of gimmickry.

My greatest pet peeve is the staple of many architects. I have come to hate tee to green ponds on the 18th. It’s almost as prolific as the awful railroad tie ponds that were the staple of the 80’s.

The other I’m sad to say is a wall directly in play – once you get sued you lose your enthusiasm for the idea.

« Last Edit: December 01, 2006, 05:38:52 PM by Ian Andrew »
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Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What would you never copy?
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2006, 07:47:46 PM »
I would never build an island green but I am building a double green.  I hope it works out well.  The two greens were originally somewhat close to each other - 8 & 18.  I kept tweaking 8 green to get it closer to 9 tee, until I joined them.  They are separated by a swale - not one of those skinny green foot paths.


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Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What would you never copy?
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2006, 03:28:05 AM »
Island greens...we have one in Jupiter...I have played it about 200 times and I have concluded that they are bad holes. It's just hit and putt or hit and reload.

I've played from both sets of tees in all kinds of weather with all kinds of players, and other than a marketing devise, it is not my cup of tea.

I enjoy watching it at the TPC, but on a steady basis, I'd prefer to pass
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Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What would you never copy?
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2006, 03:42:24 AM »
Tom,

Just curious - have you ever come up with a good routing except that you wanted two different holes to end in the same place, or very close together?

If so, did you consider a double green as a practical solution? Or did you change the routing to avoid this?
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:What would you never copy?
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2006, 07:13:50 PM »
Joe and Scott:  Yes to both questions.  At St. Andrews #7, I can see how David would have been tempted to do it, since both greens end up out on the point from different directions, and there are no traffic flow issues.  But golf-wise it would be just as good without connecting the two greens.

Matt:  At one point in the routing of Pacific Dunes, I wanted the third hole to play toward the 12th green site, but then later when the sequence was different I had to get the 12th hole in there.  We went looking for another green site that was further "inland" and were shocked to discover the green site for the third hole, covered in gorse up in the dunes.  We had to lower it a bit so that the approach shot wasn't too steep and severe ... but I found it, in part, because of my insistence on NOT building a double green.
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