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John Kirk

  • Total Karma: 4
Re:Trump in Aberdeen Update
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2006, 09:23:42 PM »
The dunesland looks beautiful.  My question is why would you use Tom Fazio the nephew, rather than old Tom Fazio?  Mr. Trump seems to use Fazio for all his projects.  While I know nothing about the younger Mr. Fazio, who may be an outstanding young architect who deserves a shot at greatness, it just seems strange not to use the man himself.

Important project.  I hope they build a great golf course.  They should.

My sentiments are with the people here who feel eight story blocks of holiday homes in Aberdeen sounds kind of gross.

Sean Leary

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Trump in Aberdeen Update
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2006, 09:31:29 PM »
JK,

I think he has used the whole Fazio clan, hasn't he? Jim, Tom, and Tommy.

Tom doesn't do much outside of the US...

David_Tepper

  • Total Karma: 4
Re:Trump in Aberdeen Update
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2006, 09:49:06 PM »
While I am not endorsing the Donald, his ego or his hair, I am guessing that the Turnberry and Gleneagles hotels appeared more than a little over the top and out of proportion to their surroundings back when they where built.  

In their prime, J.P. Morgan and Andrew Carnegie were not exactly  the shy, retiring type either!

Brian_Ewen

  • Total Karma: -1
Re:Trump in Aberdeen Update
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2006, 11:28:16 PM »
What I dont get is , Royal Aberdeen have been unable to touch their dunes for years , mainly due to a rare moth I believe . So how can Trump get permission to work on his ? .

More money ? .


Marty Bonnar

  • Total Karma: 11
Re:Trump in Aberdeen Update
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2006, 05:10:04 AM »
Tom D,
admittedly, I was indulging in a major spot of spleen-venting with that last rant.

I can only defend myself by admitting to a high level of disgust with our present 'Administration'. I've never before experienced the 'leadership' (HA!) of such a bunch of pea-brained nitwits.

Our First Minister, who you may have some experience of(?), is so blatantly under-qualified and poorly-skilled for his present position, that I cringe painfully whenever I think of him 'representing' our Nation in meetings with proper Statesmen. With people of his calibre leading us, it's no wonder we're so open to economic sodomy. Apparently, he jetted to the States for a 'personal' meeting with La Donald, who must have thought all his birthdays had come at once.

All that said, however, I still think that it is impossible to view golf course (or any other) development without taking into account the 'other' matters. I often think GCAers overlook the broader context of course development and concentrate purely on, e.g., the quality of the turf, the playability of the design or the architects previous history. Those things are important of course, and maybe that is all that GCA should be concerned with, but - as you well know - there is a much bigger picture to it all. It certainly isn't only about shifting dirt.

Scotland has to decide whether it can afford not to grasp opportunites such as this. It has to decide whether it wants to be just another parochial backwater or properly economically dynamic. It has to decide whether the environmental costs are balanced by the economic benefits. We have absolutely NO manufacturing industry left. The Steelmills are all closed. The Coalmines lie dormant. Even the booming Electronic Industry of the 80s and 90s has moved to cheaper locations in the Far East. We do have glorious scenery, history, 'Tartanalia' and golf in abundance. We need to play to our strengths. If that means letting people like Donald think we're his bitch, then bring it on. You know we'll be grinning widely as we pocket (or should that be sporran?) his money.

Catharsis Complete!,
FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

ForkaB

Re:Trump in Aberdeen Update
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2006, 07:58:46 AM »
Very well said, Martin.  I agree 100%.

Tom D

If you really think there is such a thing as Scottish "modesty" you haven't spent enough time in the right (or wrong) places over here......... :)

Brian Phillips

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Trump in Aberdeen Update
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2006, 08:59:52 AM »
Martin,

Well said.

Tom D,

I have not seen much Scottish modesty in all the time I have spent there.  ..but that might have something to do with me being English.. ;D
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Adam Clayman

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Trump in Aberdeen Update
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2006, 10:04:22 AM »
If this is Trumps first venture on Scottish soil, I believe the people in a position to decide should recognize this as pure folly. Ousiders coming-in to do massive projects without having any local roots (other than parental genetics) is a losing proposition.

Trumps Atlantic City business model will be moving east.

What are the bancruptcy laws like is Scotland?

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Marty Bonnar

  • Total Karma: 11
Re:Trump in Aberdeen Update
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2006, 10:19:23 AM »
Adam,
therein lies the problem. The 'people in a position to decide' are a right shower of - great Scottish word coming up - 'Numpties'! (I'm sure the tone of that requires no further explanation).

A further thought has occured to me since my earlier spleen dump.

I do lots of work with that alien breed: ''The Planners'. They like, and need to be seen, to be highly efficient. It would not surprise me in the slightest if Donald's in-house tame 'Planners' haven't advised him to absolutely 'Shoot the Moon' with his first Planning Application so that he can progressively back down as the process proceeds. It's WAYYYY much easier scaling back proposals as you go, rather than trying to enlarge them at a later date. The added benefit is that it can appear that you are playing the good guy as you 'back down' - ahem! - to 'Local Concerns'...

now call me an old cynic...

FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Steve Lang

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Trump in Aberdeen Update
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2006, 10:23:09 AM »
 8)

BEST IN WORLD.. not a bad goal..

He's got to have somewhere to put his apprentices to work..

Get used to it.. he's riding his love for golf into the sunset..

They don't call him THE DONALD for nothing..
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Sean Walsh

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Trump in Aberdeen Update
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2006, 11:19:37 AM »
Martin,

I don't begrudge the people of Aberdeen or Scotland the money that this project "may" reap.  From what I have seen in the tv and print media here so far this particular project under this particular entrepeneur will be a blot on what appears a beautiful landscape.  

In the news reports I have seen I counted four lakes and enough cart path for a small motorway.  Is this playing to your strengths. I doubt it.  The enormity of the building works proposed will dwarf the hotel at Carnoustie in terms of vulgarity.  Also with all the cart paths how many caddys do you think they'll be employing.  Looking in my crystal ball I see carts, GPS, lakes with fountains and monstrous buidlings.  Everything that Scottish Golf (on my little experience) is most definitely not.  

The only way I can see this being a long term beneficial project for Scotland and Scots is if the Local Authorities play the same kind of hard ball that Trump will be.  Once Trump and associates have purchased the land surely the authorities hold the upper hand.  Trump will need to see some return on his investment.  Being held up for a few years in planning is not going to help this objective.


Brian_Ewen

  • Total Karma: -1

jeffwarne

  • Total Karma: 2
Re:Trump in Aberdeen Update
« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2006, 10:36:24 AM »
It's not an all or nothing proposition for the Aberdeen economy.

They could deny Donald and then allow someone else to develop a sensibly scaled golf course/development which could be a source of considerable revenue and not at the expense of national pride.

let the Donald make good on his "plan B threat" and ruin the culture and countryside of some other country,France for example.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ulrich Mayring

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Trump in Aberdeen Update
« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2006, 11:47:52 AM »
I do not think this will go through for Trump. He is an impatient person and the environmentalists know that and will exploit it.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Dan_Callahan

  • Total Karma: 2
Re:Trump in Aberdeen Update
« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2006, 01:07:49 PM »
Is there a bigger jackass in the world?

Maybe Don King, but it's close.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Total Karma: 2
Re:Trump in Aberdeen Update
« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2006, 03:26:53 PM »
Rihc, that Golfweek shot was low. I am not saying it will not happen but Golf Digest Raters have shown the greater desire to stay at a show over great golf. They are Vegas this week. Orlando last year. 2 for 2 in show over substance.

ForkaB

Re:Trump in Aberdeen Update
« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2006, 01:19:22 AM »
Rihc, that Golfweek shot was low. I am not saying it will not happen but Golf Digest Raters have shown the greater desire to stay at a show over great golf. They are Vegas this week. Orlando last year. 2 for 2 in show over substance.

John

When the fruit is so low-hanging, one does not have to reach very high...... :)

Tony_Muldoon

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Trump in Aberdeen Update
« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2006, 05:23:59 AM »
From the Dictionary of Slang.

Trump  Verb. To break wind from the anus, to 'fart'. E.g."There's a disgusting smell in here. Has someone trumped?"
Noun. 1. An act of breaking wind.
2. The resulting smell of having broke wind from the anus, a 'fart'.
2025 Craws Nest Tassie, Carnoustie.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Total Karma: 7
Re:Trump in Aberdeen Update
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2006, 06:28:19 AM »
In the news reports I have seen I counted four lakes and enough cart path for a small motorway.  Is this playing to your strengths. I doubt it.  The enormity of the building works proposed will dwarf the hotel at Carnoustie in terms of vulgarity.  Also with all the cart paths how many caddys do you think they'll be employing.  Looking in my crystal ball I see carts, GPS, lakes with fountains and monstrous buidlings.  Everything that Scottish Golf (on my little experience) is most definitely not.  

sean, where did you see this info?

i was home in aberdeen at the w/end and caught a glimpse of the local paper which had a site map for the outline planning application showing a crude routing of the course...

...it seems to have the clubhouse in the middle near the sea with roughly two figure eight configurations for the front and back nines... four par threes, west, east, north and south facing... it wasn't accurate enough to show cart paths but i saw no sign of lakes...

...anyway, i've made my feelings clear earlier in the thread... but if what you're saying is true, then that's the final nail in the coffin for me... the only (slight) hope i had was that fazio jr would manage to actually make the golf course a great in amongst the concrete jungle of eight story apartment blocks   >:(

Brian_Ewen

  • Total Karma: -1
Re:Trump in Aberdeen Update
« Reply #44 on: April 19, 2007, 03:45:27 AM »
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0200wales/tm_headline=trump-linked-to-golf-course-site-next-to-wales--ryder-cup-venue&method=full&objectid=18925552&siteid=50082-name_page.html

Trump linked to golf course site next to Wales' Ryder Cup venue Apr 19 2007
Sally Williams, Western Mail
 
DONALD TRUMP is understood to be in the running to build a new golf course near Wales' Ryder Cup venue.

The billionaire is said to be interested in buying the most sought- after piece of land in Wales, bordering the Celtic Manor resort.

If Mr Trump does acquire it, he has the potential to create his own Welsh Trump International Golf Links right next door to the site of the global golfing event in 2010.

RE/MAX Associates estate agents said an "unnamed but well-known Manhattan property investor" had asked for particulars about the 31-acre prime development site, offering views of the Ryder Cup golf course.

Sean McMahon, of RE/MAX Associates, said he could not disclose further details of the anonymous Manhattan tycoon because of a forthcoming confidentiality agreement.

But he confirmed that the high-profile person is "big in property" and is just one of a "handful of well-known people" amid an unprecedented level of inquiries both locally and internationally.

It makes sense for Mr Trump to be interested in the site. He already has plans for a £1bn Trump International Golf Links on the Menie Estate in Aberdeenshire, Scotland.

Scottish enterprise chiefs there say it will be the biggest thing to hit their economy since oil was discovered in the North Sea four decades ago.
The fate of Trump's Scottish golfing dream will be decided later this summer but his potential Welsh venture could be sealed sooner.

Mr McMahon said the mixture of picturesque woodland and farmland near Celtic Manor could make another great golf course. He said, "The Ryder Cup effect is in full force and this property gives an investor a 'piggy back ride' on the back of it.

"This property was bought in the hope that the Ryder Cup would come to Newport and any developer will have a few years to get it ready for the 2010 event.

The land - and there's a lot of it - borders Celtic Manor and from it, you can see on to the golf course.

"Within 24 hours of listing the particulars, we have been approached by a wide range of potential investors from Dubai, Spain, Dublin and Belfast.
"The potential for the land is endless - it could be used for anything from a golf course and mini golf, to equestrian eventing or holiday log cabins.

"All interested parties have seen the potential for this site, whether their plans include residential development or for commercial property.

"As one of the world's largest estate agencies, with offices in 63 countries worldwide, we have seen significant interest from overseas.

"For example in our Los Angeles office, Nicolas Cage and Bette Midler are on our database.

"We advertise in the Wall Street Journal and Unique Homes, a magazine read by Arnold Schwarzenegger - some big people."

He said the plot, to be sold by private treaty, is situated close to the Celtic Manor resort on the western side of the A449, north of Coldra roundabout at junction 24 of the M4. The land is outside the settlement boundary, in the area identified in Newport's Unitary Development Plan as "greenwedge".

Mr McMahon added, "This means there will be no 100-room hotels on the site but there are still lots of options."

With a Grade II-listed 17th-century priory farmhouse and two barns, one of which is Grade II-listed and dates back to the 19th century, the buildings sit within a site of 31.28 acres of agricultural and woodland.

There is currently no specific planning permission for the renovation of the buildings. However the intent of the current owner was to renovate the farmhouse to provide a detached three-bedroom dwelling.

In addition the proposals were for the two barns to be converted to provide a single L-shaped dwelling with three bedrooms.

Ed Tilley

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Trump in Aberdeen Update
« Reply #45 on: April 19, 2007, 03:58:56 AM »
Perhaps I'm misreading this - is this Newport, Rhode Island, or even Newport, Isle of Wight? I'm struggling to envisage Newport, South Wales as a holiday destination!

Don't get me wrong, Wales is a beautiful country, probably one of the most beautiful 'pound for pound' in the world but Newport really is the armpit of the country. Plus, if Trump really wants to invest in that area there is a fantastic course waiting to be built in the sand dunes of Kenfig burrows a little further down the M4.

lesueur

Re:Trump in Aberdeen Update
« Reply #46 on: April 19, 2007, 04:10:33 AM »
How are they going to build a golf course on 31 acres - or have I read it wrong??

Jason McNamara

Re:Trump in Aberdeen Update
« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2007, 12:52:58 AM »
And was his mom also from Anglesey?   ;)

Jason

Brian_Ewen

  • Total Karma: -1
Re:Trump in Aberdeen Update
« Reply #48 on: August 05, 2007, 05:31:23 AM »
An update on the project from todays Scotland on Sunday:

Trump drives golf course plan on despite nine holes being 'out of bounds'
JEREMY WATSON

US BILLIONAIRE Donald Trump has ignored repeated pleas to move his planned Scottish golf course away from a protected environment site, despite being told such a move would virtually secure official approval.

Documents show officials from Aberdeenshire Council have suggested on several occasions that the tycoon should rethink his controversial plan to site nine holes on a unique coastal dune system containing a dome of sand.

Planning permission for his golf development at Menie Links would be easier to obtain if Trump moved the course a few yards inland and away from the dunes, officials hint.

But the New York property developer and his staff have told the planners that they will not change their minds. According to minutes of a meeting between the Trump team and officials last month, project director Neil Hobday said the tycoon's "vision" was to create "a world class championship course and development of the sand dome is a key part of this. It was felt that to remove holes from this part of the site would result in a second-rate course."

Planning consultants working for Trump said they had not been given the "flexibility" to take the holes out of the Special Site of Scientific Interest on which the developer wants to build the course.

The newly released documents also reveal:

• Consultants working for Trump opposed a decision to grant government advisers more time to prepare an environmental report on the site;

• The consultants tried to get the Ministry of Defence to relax restrictions on the height of buildings so the resort hotel can be built on a bigger scale;

• The perimeter of the 1,100-acre site will be enclosed by a wire fence with restricted access points.

Trump announced plans to build his £1bn Trump International Golf Links resort at Balmedie, 10 miles north of Aberdeen, last year, saying the scale of the investment would be the biggest in the north-east of Scotland since the discovery of North Sea oil and would revitalise the local economy.

As well as building the "best seaside course in the world", he intended to develop a second course, a 450-room hotel, 500 luxury homes, and hundreds of holiday apartments.

But his plan to build part of his signature course on an officially protected, wildlife-rich natural dune system, has brought objections from environmental bodies including Scottish Natural Heritage, the Scottish Environmental Protection Agency, the RSPB and the Scottish Wildlife Trust.

In a response last May, SNH said that building golf holes among the dunes would "effectively destroy" the conservation site and urged Trump to move the course onto nearby farmland within his estate.

There have so far been 78 objections against the development lodged with the council and only 11 letters of support.

In a letter to the Trump organisation in June, Lesley Aitken, the Aberdeenshire planning official assigned to the case, says it is clear that the northern area of the development lies within the Foveran Links SSSI, "a dynamic and mobile area of the coast where the vegetation present is entirely dependant on this continuous change. This would be lost if the development is permitted."

She adds that it would appear from discussions (with SNH) that there is little scope for removal of its objection as it is unlikely that location of the golf course will change.

The council was told by Ironside Farrar, Trump's Edinburgh-based consultants, there would be no layout changes.

Reaffirming Trump's threat to pull out of the project unless his plans are accepted in their entirety, the firm said: "Without the ability to form the course in this location, there would be no basis for the resort, and it would not proceed."

Trump's intransigence will heap pressure on the council's Formartine area planning committee, which is due to decide the first stage of the planning application on September 18.

If councillors reject the plan on environmental grounds, they risk the wrath of the north-east business community, which welcomes Trump's claims that the project will create more than 1,000 permanent jobs and inject around £47m into the local economy annually.

Alfie

Re:Trump in Aberdeen Update
« Reply #49 on: August 05, 2007, 08:44:06 AM »
Having read through this thread, I can understand the sentiments put forward by both camps in this "golf" development debate.

Personally, and as a golfing Scot, I am in complete favour of the dev't because of the serious investment required and what it can do, not only for the north east coast of Scotland, but for the entire north of Scotland !

Martin, makes many fine and sensible points, but has crossed the line of political impartiality on this one. His little diatribe relating to Scotland's "International" First Minister (Salmondella) should be disregarded due to the misleading information which he supplanted in his earlier post ! >:(

So. Outwith direct politicking of Scottish golf, I welcome ANY of our wealthier cousins to come and invest in a NEW Scotland, especially where there are more golf courses in the investment equation (even though a bit too lucrative for this hacker) !
And if 8 story buildings are seen as offensive - we can always get a future administration to lob a few floors off the top ?

Alfie.
prospective SNP candidate for Scotland's "Golf Tourism" post  ;)