[wsmorrison]

Glen,

Oops, that was a glaring mistake (and it is not because I am not fond of Bethpage Black, perhaps designed by a Philadelphian).

Jim,

I wasn't trying to embarass anyone, least of all myself.  All these courses tha James and Glen (except for Bethpage) are adding is not what I was getting at.  I left out dozens of courses around Philadelphia.  I was trying to get a sense of the depth of great courses in the different regions.  I looked at a larger geographical area due to the urban sprawl that extends much further in NYC.  But on the other hand, courses per population and other demographics work in disfavor to the MET.  How about if we just compare the top tier courses in each area, especially the same geographic area, what is the result?  I doubt Muttontown and others listed are in that category.

You've been stuck in NYC, Westchester and Long Island traffic jams.  Sometimes it takes an hour to drive from Southampton to East Hampton.  Tom and I left Shinnecock one early evening and we didn't pull into the Gulph Mills parking lot until a full 7 hours later!  All the traffic was in and around LI and NYC.  If you want to look at a 2 hour radius, it is a lot smaller in the MET than the GAP.  In that case, we can include Saucon Valley, Lehigh, Lancaster and a host of other worthy inclusions.

On reflection, I will raise the white flag.  I have to get back to laying out the Flynn book (pain in the ass) and don't have the strength to argue.  Given that Sully won't pick up the flag and charge ahead, I'll sound retreat

[Tony_Muldoon]

From my humble base in Hackney (recently identified as the worst place in GB to live in, thanks C4) with good motorway access two hours includes
Swinley, Berkshire, Wentworth, Sunningdale, Woking, St Georges Hill, Pulborough, Walton Heath, the Addington, in fact all of Surrey and Berkshire and the glories of Heathland golf.  The above are just the most famous.

It also easily allows for Links golf at Sandwich, Deal, Princes, Littlestone, and Rye.  

And heading north it definitely includes the world’s best 9 holer Royal Worlington and parts of Suffolk.

Now do we decide this on Doak or Crane points?

The above list includes (from memory) 4 ‘Flavours of Golf’ and three Open venues.

(And for Tom Huckaby the Emirates Stadium is a mere 20 mins)

Its tough living here, but someone has to do it.  

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn, HCC is an Emmet/Tull design.  Muttontown is a solo Tull.  I have not played them.

I thought so, I wanted to say that, but then I figured that he didn't do them both. Wrong again.

[Glenn Spencer]

Wayne,

I left Dayton, Ohio at 5am on a Friday morning and I got to the GW Bridge 7 hours later. 4 more hours from there and I was at my grandparent's house in Centerport. 4 hours to go 40 miles. 7 hrs to go 500, crazy. To your point though. It is starting to look like Scotland has the best set of great courses, Long Island has the best marquee courses and Philadelphia has the most that you want to play. From my perspective anyway.

[JMorgan]

Wayne, I can get to Bethpage and Garden City in 20 min from Midtown, esp. early in the morning.  (Fifteen min. on Sunday morning.)  The LIRR and MetroNorth (Westchester) trains are mostly on time if one gets a pick-up.  Those Hampton Jitneys aren't bad, either.  So my guess is TP was driving that day.  

No, you are correct about traffic being a day-to-day crap shoot and about narrowing the course selection to the top few.  Even so, I think we could come up with a pretty formidable list.  I would include Lancaster and Lehigh in the Phila. group.  (Heck, I could probably get to Lehigh in less than 90 min. myself.)

Nevertheless, I'd surely trade places with Rich for a month, though I think my dog would drive him crazy.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

adding to Wayne's list,

North Hempsted
Hempsted
Garden City Country Club
Fresh Meadow
North Hills
Engineers
Nassau Country Club
Rockville Links
Seawane

[JMorgan]

Sweeney, if you want to play that game, I'm adding Yale and Fisher's Island to mine.  

[ForkaB]

To me, this discussion should be based on a reasonable one day drive to and from the course from your home base, this was mentioned above by someone referrencing North Jersey. Think of the courses you could play within 90 - 120 minutes from there. I would guess Rich can (and maybe has) come up with a list to compete.

OK boys, lay them on the table. Best 20 courses within 2 hours drive from both North Jersey and whatever spot in Scotland is centrl to those courses.

Sully

In addition to the 15 or so courses I noted in my last post (all of which are within 1 1/2 hours drve from my house), I will add:

Glasgow Gailes
Kintyre
Portland
Dundonald
Barassie
Lanark
Burgess
Bruntsfield
Dunbar
Musselburgh
Luffness
Elie
Lundin
Ladybank
Crail
Scotscraig
Panmure
Downfield
Montrose. etc. etc.

PS--Tony Muldoon

Anybody who could get from Swinely to Sandwich in under 3 hours must have a helicopter at their disposal!

[Glenn Spencer]

To me, this discussion should be based on a reasonable one day drive to and from the course from your home base, this was mentioned above by someone referrencing North Jersey. Think of the courses you could play within 90 - 120 minutes from there. I would guess Rich can (and maybe has) come up with a list to compete.

OK boys, lay them on the table. Best 20 courses within 2 hours drive from both North Jersey and whatever spot in Scotland is centrl to those courses.

Sully

In addition to the 15 or so courses I noted in my last post (all of which are within 1 1/2 hours drve from my house), I will add:

Glasgow Gailes
Kintyre
Portland
Dundonald
Barassie
Lanark
Burgess
Bruntsfield
Dunbar
Musselburgh
Luffness
Elie
Lundin
Ladybank
Crail
Scotscraig
Panmure
Downfield
Montrose. etc. etc.

PS--Tony Muldoon

Anybody who could get from Swinely to Sandwich in under 3 hours must have a helicopter at their disposal!

Rich,

We were told to play Dunbar, but ended up at Lundin instead. Did we make the right choice? Ladybank was a cool experience.

[ForkaB]

Glenn

Both Lundin and Ladybank are better than Dunbar (IMHO) but not by much.  You did good.

Rich

[Tony_Muldoon]

No helicopter Rich but I do have 9 points on the license and once I get back to 6 in December I'll take that bet on.

Just checked the 100% law abiding AA route planner has SL5 9LE to CT13 9PB, 2 hrs 9mins.

[SPDB]

Wayne, I can get to Bethpage and Garden City in 20 min from Midtown, esp. early in the morning.  (Fifteen min. on Sunday morning.)  

This is pure, unadulterated fiction.

[JMorgan]

Wayne, I can get to Bethpage and Garden City in 20 min from Midtown, esp. early in the morning.  (Fifteen min. on Sunday morning.)  

This is pure, unadulterated fiction.

Not when you live a few mere blocks from the Midtown Tunnel it isn't.  

[M. Shea Sweeney]

James-

Were keepin it outside the city arent we?

some of those clubs I listed are not DIRECTLY outside the city as say the hunt club or the Garden Citys, but sure have a large part of their membership working in the city.

[Mark Chaplin]

Tony - When I joined Deal I was living in Walthamstow and allowed around 100 minutes to get to the club.

I really believe overseas visitors under estimate just what is available on the golfing front within an hour or so of London.
Ok, Sunningdale, Wentworth, Stoke Park are mega bucks but the three Ws, St Georges Hill, The Addington & The Berkshire are all a fabulous day out for £100 +/-.

Follow that up with a day at Littlestone, Princes, Rye or Deal and you have 2 classic days of golf for around the price of a round at the K club or Troon.

Those GCA'ers who make business trips to London try and pencil in an extra 2 days and us London/South east boys will show you some great golf.

[Bill Shamleffer]

Of course New York City and then Boston and Philly will have the historic courses as these cities contained almost everything of significance in American golf until the late 1920s.  However, many metro areas offer wonderful varieties of golf architecture.  Chicago and Columbus jump to mind immediately.  Why even look at my home town of St. Louis:

MISSOURI:
St. Louis CC
Glen Echo
Algonquin
Norwood (West & East)
Westwood
Meadowbrook
Old Warson
Bellerive
Boone Valley
Players Club
Fox Run GC
Persimmon Woods
St. Albans
Forest Park (re-design)
Normandie
Crystal Highlands

ILLINOIS:
Annbriar
Gateway National
Spencer T. Olin
Orchards GC

These are 20 very good courses.  I would recommend any one of these courses as worth the effort to play.  They cover a wide range of time-periods and styles of architecture.

Many metro areas offer a full range of good to excellent golf courses where one could live their whole life and experience a full variety of golf during the long periods at home between one's occasional travels.  However, to focus on the courses where golf was born (and thus will always contain a certain historical significance), is to miss out on many other "sleeper" locals for very good golf all over the country.

I am not stating that this list of courses is equal to the top 20 courses on L.I.  However, everyone on this board cannot just relocate to NYC and then have access to these courses.  In fact, many on this board live in metro areas not immediately thought of as focal points of great golf architecture.  Although, if you turn your eye to your home region, it will soon be noticed that a full table of golf architecture can be explored without leaving town.

This may seem an obvious point to make, but at times it does seem that outside of about 4 cities, that for the remaining of America most discussion on this board is reserved to only the most significant couple of courses per city.

It would be the equivalent of only discussing the books of Updike, Bellows, Pynchon, and Roth, while forgetting Heller, Malamud, Fisher, Cheever, or Vonnegut.

Or as if one only heard the symphonies of Beethoven and Mozart, but missed anything by Sibelius, Saint-Saens, or Ives.

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