[rjsimper]

Reading the Rustic/Wild Horse/Riverdale thread has me thinking....

I have not played Riverdale, but I played WH in 2003 and play Rustic Canyon nearly weekly.

Conditioning has been a hot topic of late, and since I don't have a keen grasp of what it takes or doesn't take to keep a golf course in ideal conditions, I am wondering if there are any examples of "affordable" courses a la RC or WH whose conditions have improved with age, and how does this work?

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong in noting any trend at all, but RC is softer than when it opened, compromising some of the design features, and WH is allegedly softer than before, which I also have to think compromises some of the design features.

Yes, my sample only includes these two courses, so the potential for error is enormous.

Will an "affordable" course always looking back on it's glory days of conditioning, and if not...how is this accomplished?

(I am not talking about grass quality here, more firmness than anything...I am sure Bethpage's grass circa 1995 was nothing like Bethpage turf in 2003)

[ed_getka]

Ryan,
   I don't think there is any need for conditioning to get to the point where it is at either course you mention. I don't know about WH since I haven't been there for a  year and a half. It is economics and superintendent. Give a good super the resources and he will get the maintenance where it should be. Unfortunately, the money people want green receptive turf or more profit, or I don't know what else, but the ideal presentation of the golf course is not their primary concern.
    Maybe the average golfer at Rustic doesn't even notice this decline. I don't know. Maybe that is the crux of the issue. Perhaps most golfers don't notice these things that upset us. Where we would be happy to pay an extra $10 for green fees, perhaps most golfers wouldn't be willing to pay that cost for the proper conditioning (ie firmness).
    It is a shame though to think that RC, WH, Apache Stronghold and other courses like this could potentially fade away.

    I don't know that you are generally going to get an improvement in conditioning over time, since the course should be pretty ideal when it opens if the developer and architect were on the same page, and the super knows what he is doing. It is just a matter of having maintenance practices that put the course first.
   

[Adam Clayman]

Ryan,

One course that has dramatically improved their conditions and is very affordable, is Pinon Hills. In that case, the major issue for poor conditioning was the fault of improper coverage due to the heads on the sprinkler system. There were other factors that led to the improvement, but as I said, the replacing of the heads was key.

Ed,
 In response to your other question on the other thread, Josh is still there. He loves his job and I'm sure wants to keep it. So, I think we all need to be sensitive of the issues involved both physically and politically.  The collars at WH are the only aspect that is noticably softer. There's one physical reason for that and it is the bent grass from the greens that has over taken the fescue. The political reason they are soft is speculation on my part. At RC, I sensed from the super when we spoke that he was under political pressure to soften the whole place.

It's been my experience that even the above average golfer (both in frequency and ability) doesn't know the difference between acceptable and bad conditions. Often howling a familiar whine to compensate for a lack of success, off other than ideal conditions.

[ed_getka]

Adam,
   Josh certainly doesn't have to worry about his job. He does a fantastic job at WH with what I am sure is a modest budget at best. It is disheartening to hear the collars are soft, but I am sure Josh will find a solution. I would hire that guy in a second if I had a golf course.
    Whatever is going on at WH is not because Josh isn't doing his job. When I was there in summer '05 the course was probably in the best condition imaginable.

[rjsimper]

Adam - Interestingly enough, I played Pinon Hills on the same cross-country driving trip I played WH on in May of 2003.  Although obviously approximate, would you say at the time it was in the better or worse stages of its conditioning?

[Adam Clayman]

Ryan, As I recall 03' was just prior to the sprinkler work. In 05' they bought entirely new equiptment which also helped with the better conditioning.

Ed, WH is still in great condition save for the collars. Josh top dresses every two weeks. Josh is a great guy and was Corey Crandall's first Ass't at SH before getting the job in G-Burg. Corey, as it turns out, is THE MAN, if you want or need to get a quality person on your crew. Justin White has left SH and is being replaced by Doug Petersan's 1st, Kyle....(?) Sorry forgot his last name.

[Jim Thompson]

There are a more than a few factors to this question, but i'll give them my best shot...

The first is that any course can not control what mother nature provides in a given season.  Take this september in Michigan.  I'm sure some would question a commitment to fast and firm at many courses in my state this fall but there isn't a whole hell of alot a super can do when it rains 35 out of 45 days.  Further if you played  a course that was plugged the week after Labor Day in Michigan this year it was pretty soft for the rest of the season.

The next factor is a supers approach to maint.  Many times I see supers who perform horticultural tasks because of a date on a calendar or because that was the way they were taught.  One of the nicest changes of pace I have been lucky to be part of is having a super who only does things when they are needed.  It allows him to have more of the secondary items he would prefer due to savings from manging the condition rather than managing for condition.  I hope that makes sense.

I think you'll also see a number of supers trading some  shatter tining during the course of a season for prior would be coring practices.  There really is no reason why a course has to do a backward slide as it develops other than a poor approach to initial maint practices.

Cheers!

JT

[Jon Wiggett]

There are a more than a few factors to this question, but i'll give them my best shot...


The next factor is a supers approach to maint.  Many times I see supers who perform horticultural tasks because of a date on a calendar or because that was the way they were taught.  One of the nicest changes of pace I have been lucky to be part of is having a super who only does things when they are needed.  It allows him to have more of the secondary items he would prefer due to savings from manging the condition rather than managing for condition.  I hope that makes sense.

Jim, think you hit the nail on the head there in respect course management. There is a tendency for letting education over ride common sense. i.e doing something such as coring the greens because its on the annual maintenance program even if the greens don't need it, etc.

With regards to firmness. Looking at it in its simplest form it depends on two major factors. 1. Drainage. If the site is poorly drained then the ground will be soft after it rains and remain soft as the water can't get away. It is therefore important that suficient drainage that is deep enough (deeper the better) be install to deal with the seasonal needs. Surface drainage is important to deal with short term needs but can not replace deep drainage.
Added to this a program of slit aeration of all parts of the course from the semi rough in on a up to monthly basis and twice monthly (which can include slit, star, micro, verticut, etc.) will help greatly with surface drainage, rootgrowth and thatch reduction.

The second point is grass selection. You need to avoid thatch forming grasses going rather for the deeper rooting types. i.e fescue. The man made grass types such as Agrostis palutris (A-4, L93 and so on) create considerably more thatch if both sward types are correctly maintained. Too much thatch in addition to creating a softer playing surface makes the sward less drought tolerant. This inturn leads to over watering to keep the supposed quality of the sward high.

I would like to make clear that this is a very simple way of looking at it and it depends alot on the climate.

Oh and ryan does maintaining firmness cost more money. No, it should cost considerably less if the basic ground requirements of drainage are met.

[rjsimper]

Oh and ryan does maintaining firmness cost more money. No, it should cost considerably less if the basic ground requirements of drainage are met.

Intuitively, that's what I would think.  Maybe more of an "art" but in the long run, lower cost outlays if the art is mastered.  

[Jim Thompson]

Jon,

I don't get the beef folks have had with L-93.  It has been a wonderful turf for us!!!  I have been told by a number of folks who have seen photos and been on site that our L-93 doesn't look like others they've seen and that I must be mistaken as to what we put down.  I opened most of the bags during seeding and they were all the same; Simplot L-93.  It is a great turf, that does not over thatch, choke itself out, require undue aerification, water, feeding or regulators.

What are the general negatives you've heard about L-93?  Has L-93 been lumped in with the A strains just because?  I've been told in the last year that it should only be used for fairways.  Who is spreading these rumors?

Cheers!

JT

[Pete Lavallee]

At Rustic Canyon you have a course where there has been ZERO rain for over 6 months. The course is irrigated with Colorado River water which has a notoriouly high salt content. Salts have built up over this period and just shutting off the water so you firm and fast freaks can have your fix is a recipe for dissaster.

Even in the UK golf courses are only seasonally F&F, you can't have it that way all year round. Now after the rainy season is over and Rustic has had a good flush I suspect conditionss will approach the ideal we all would like. But until then we may have to put up with less than optimal condions for the good of the course's health and the Supers job.

[RJ_Daley]

I wish I knew what the actual situation is at WH.  I can only speculate.  I'm quite certain Josh can provide whatever conditions are "requested" within the bounds of yielding to unusual weather occurence and with the provision of enough budget.

But, I wouldn't be surprised that it is more of a balancing act of considerations of what the overseers of the course B.O.D. are willing to provide to the maintenance budget, and what they are prepared to compromise to softer surrounds.  I wouldn't be at all surprised that the everyday resident players and stockholders of the course don't want the more firm surrounds that we love to make the special trip out there to experience.  I get the impression that the everyday residents want their rounds to be more laid back and less challenging than the kind of high challenge/heavy strategy greens approach game that the firm and fast conditions that WH's design is capable of presenting.  I could be wrong.  They still have the great bent greens in speed-firmness and true roll, along with superior healthy and firm dwarf bluegrass fairways.  This year the rough got as thick in "some" areas as I had ever seen it.  In my mind that is also a trend that is long term challenging.

I must say that the first day I played there this fall, they had the most difficult pin positions that I had ever experienced on the course given the wind and cold.  That day, the slightly soft surrounds were not missed too much.  So, that might very well be the prevalent resident golfer's attitude.

I would very much like to hear from some fescue savvy super's in a sort of symposium about the challenges that must be in the forefront of the maintenance there, given what Adam and Ron Farris have observed about the bent grass more and more dominating the fescue surrounds after several years now.  Is it feasible (and at what cost) to reintroduce a more dominant fescue sward back into the surrounds?  That is what makes WH a unique course in design compared to the usual presentation of rough height bluegrass and ryes within immediate proximity to putting surfaces as is the typical U.S. course model.  Is it simply a fact that the fescue can not thrive in that weather and relative humidity and will never be able to stand up to the higher priority and necessary program of maintenance that the bent grass greens require?  Are there examples where these two turf species co-exist within the climate and conditions that Nebraska  has to offer?

Inquiring minds want to know...

[Adam Clayman]

RJ, I can't answer definitively but in my conversations with the turf Doctor, it's likely more a function of how aggresive the bent is.

In our few rounds there this fall, I don't think I saw your ball react in the softer collars but once or twice. I think I pointed it out to you at that moment but it's possible you didn't hear me. The reaction is one of utter confusion.

I do think it's possible to remove the effect of the softer collars by hitting an even lower trajectory shot, that rolls well before the collars start. In some instances the collars are too wide, which makes this shot option nearly impossible to pull off. On my last visit, I experimented with putting the 3 wood, rather than become frustrated with bouncing thru the collar, and was somewhat successful in mitigating the softness's affect.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jim, great to hear that your L-93 is doing great. If you have photos then please post some. I don't really have anything against Agrostis palutris when used in the right setting. Of the various types L-93 is certainly the best by a long shot. It has many advantages compared to most such as reduced thatch, wider range of cutting heights, less feeding, etc. It always makes me wonder when I see L-93/A-4 mixes or the like being recommend. Its like crossing buying a sports car and hanging a caravan on the back of it. I have used it in a remodel a few years ago and I would certainly use it again in the right situation.

Gee Pete, whats your point. I never said shut off the water. Oh and this ideal condition that we would all like. Do tell?

[Jim Thompson]

Jon,

Check out my "My Home Course" piece.  Plenty of photos throughout the year.

JT

[ed_getka]

Jon,
   I don't know anything about growing grass, but whatever JT has at Angels Crossing works really well. And the day I was there this fall was pretty wet. I was just going to have Jim drive me around for a tour, but by the back nine I couldn't take it anymore and just had to play some holes.
    I was very impressed by the planning and thought Jim and his brother put into their project.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jim,

just checked out the posting you made in m home course and the course looks just fine. From what I can gather you went wall to wall L-93 (well maybe not the rough?).

Whats the mowing equipment you've got out there? Hand mowers on the green? Do you aerate regularly and topdress. Whats your NPK input for the greens?

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