[Patrick_Mucci]

Padraig,
 
I think the dilemma the traveling golfer faces is:
 
Did I travel 3,000+ miles to play this special course and play "conservative"
 
I took it over the tree on # 8 and hit driver on # 9 and driver again on # 16 and intended to hit my driver left of the trees on # 17 but I hit a slight cut and found myself partially blocked on # 17.
 
While I didn't hit particularly good drives on # 1, 2, and 4, I did hit good drives on # 5 and 6 and that was the key to my decision on # 8 and 9.
 
Had I not hit good drives on #'s 5 & 6 I'm not so sure that I would have been so aggressive.
 
It took me until today to figure out why I've been fading the ball with my driver.
 
Golfers need to constantly evaluate the fundamentals because it's so easy to fall into habits that negatively impact our games.
 
My game remains a work in progress.

The interesting thing about Cypress is the option between the heroic shots and the conservative shots. If a golfer was looking to compile a score, the conservative choice should come up trumps all of the time, yet it's such a thrill to play there the golfer is lured into the excitement of the heroic shot all of the time.

For example, taking a tight line over the dune on 8, hitting driver off 9, going for the green on 16, hitting driver to the left of the trees on 17, these feel like heroic shots to me whereas the smart play dictates a tee shot left on 8, a mid iron off 9, a lay up on 16 and a long iron short of the trees on 17.

Other examples include hitting a raking hook off the 6th tee.

Does anyone else feel like this? I always hit driver off 9, it's just such a thrill if it comes off, it's not that exhilarating hitting a 6 iron off it or laying up on 16.
 
The dilemma on # 9 is that the further you lay back, the more difficult your approach.
The same applies to # 8, which is no bargain if you drive far left off the tee.
 
The Monterey Peninsula is special.
 
I don't think you can argue with the quote attributed to RLS, that it's the most magnificent meeting of  land and sea in the world,

[Joel_Stewart]

I took a pretty good look at 18 yesterday.  As an added bonus I hit 3 wood-wedge and made birdie.


I'm a little surprised that no one has mentioned the changes C&C have done on the 18th much less the entire golf course.


C&C either restored or added a new bunker about 125 yards off the tee on the left.  I would assume it rarely comes into play and only penalizes horrific shots. 


They also enlarged significantly the bunker on the right side of the fairway.  You can see the size in the middle B&W photo with Mackenzie walking up the fairway.   

Based on overhead views of the hole and rock island, the hole would extend from 365 to about 425. I confirmed this by looking back at the Shackleford book which mentioned the island would add at least 50 yards to it's 365 yard length. Google earth measurements were right at 60 yards. The line would be a bit more of a dogleg right, assuming the parking area next to the tee was not there at the time. That would make the tee shot about 320 to the left bunker and 285 to the right bunker (blue lines). It would also bring the 2 short bunkers much more into play, especially in the early days. The carry on the left bunker is about 220 and about 230 to reach the bunker on the right (red lines). It's 115 yards from the yellow line at the middle of the dogleg to the middle of the green. It looks like if you hit a 250 yard drive at the long left bunker you'd end up with about 175 to the hole.



This is what the second shot would look like from that approximate tee shot








The book also mentioned the long left bunker as being more directional to aim the golfer up the fairway towards the green. Based on the measurements, that makes perfect sense. I doubt we would hear many complaints about the hole if that tee box had gotten built, especially with the cool factor of it being on a rock island in the ocean and the fact that it would have been an extremely difficult finishing hole. The walk back to the tee would be one of the 3 or 4 best in golf in my opinion. Here's a couple of pics of the island.

If MacKenzie contemplated placing the tee on # 18 on the rock island to the right of the 17th green, would the hole have had the same basic design, or would it be a par 5 ?

[Jordan Wall]

Agreed that Cypress is so much more than just the ocean holes. But when has it ever been just about the ocean holes, in particular the shot on 16?

The inland holes are spectacular in their own right.  I've always been favorable to the fourth hole. I think it's underrated and a great transition into the cypress, tree-lined, holes.

The fifth hole is simply magnificent. The bunkering is big, bold, and majestic, and the way the hole seemlessly tumbles around the corner is brilliant. I love how you can challenge going left to hit the downslope in the fairway, allowing for extra yards off the tee and the chance to go for the green in two.

Six is incredible too, while also being incredibly unique. Do you go right over the bunker and try and get a big kick or even challenge the bunker further left to get around the corner and try for the green in two? The dune as a backdrop to the green is swell and the green itself is subtle and tricky, in my opinion one of the best on the course.

8 and 9 are talked about ad nauseum. They are some of the best short par-4's on the planet, and each completely original even to this day.

10 through 14 all have their special qualities that make them great. The little cookie shack on 11 tee is pretty special too, and nobody makes better oatmeal-raisin cookies.

The opening three holes, too, have strong qualities that make them great.  I just love the opening tee shot over 17-mile drive.

Saying Cypress is great just because of 16 and the ocean holes is like saying The Godfather is great simply because of the ending. Surely the ending is great, but it is the sum of a magnificent story that builds up a lot of smaller, great parts together to a climax that seems eloquently yet astonishingly fitting. Similarly , the first fourteen holes at CPC are magnificently crafted and produce a majestic build up to what may be the best three consecutive holes in golf. It would surely be disappointing to have three such fantastic ocean holes follow fourteen average, below-average, or simply good golf holes. Rather, Cypress uses the first fourteen holes to build up the crescendo that are holes 15-17.

What more can you ask for in a golf course?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joel,

In looking at your rendering of # 18 with the tee on the rock island, the hole would have to be a par 5 or a par 4 without the current sharp dogleg.

[Joel_Stewart]

That's not my rendering but I suspect it would be.  Although that piece of the property is so heavily slopped the run off would be tremendous.


I personally don't have a big problem with 18.  I do think hitting over a tree on the tee shot is kind of silly.  Like many holes at Cypress Point it requires very precise shots, both on the tee shot and 2nd shot. 

[Bryan Drennon]

Joel,

In looking at your rendering of # 18 with the tee on the rock island, the hole would have to be a par 5 or a par 4 without the current sharp dogleg.

It was my rendering. I measured it using google earth. The hole would be aprox 425 yards from the new tee (365 from the current tee). I redid my earlier rendition and took out some of the trees on the left side of the fairway and all of the trees next to the current tee. I left 2 trees on the left to help keep the integrity of the tee shot on 17. To use the island tee, the public lookout area would have had to never exist or have been shifted more to the east. The hole would be a bit more of a dogleg right. The tee shot would now be about 320 to the far left bunker and 285 to the far right bunker (blue lines). It would also bring the 2 short bunkers much more into play, especially in the early days. The carry on the left bunker is about 220 and about 230 to reach the bunker on the right (red lines). It's 115 yards from the yellow line at the middle of the dogleg to the middle of the green. It looks like if you hit a 250 yard drive at the long left bunker you'd end up with about 175 to the hole (from about the area of the star in the second pic). If this was his first choice for the hole, I think it goes from a possible weak link to a strong and memorable finish.






It looks like a

[Kalen Braley]

The other problem with that island tee is the "duck-hook" danger zone it would create for people approaching 17 green.....but then again it is Cypress so they probably don't have too many issues with a packed tee sheet! 
 
Additionally, that parking lot would have to be moved or a large fence constructed to protect cars from getting pelted..

[Dave McCollum]

Kalen,

I was in that parking lot less than a year ago.  There is a fence and thick row of trees between 18 and the parking lot that probably got removed in the rendering.  Everyone else was snapping pix of some lone cypress.  I was trying to catch a glimpse of CPC (unsuccessfully).  Don't know where you'd move the lot given real estate values.

[Bryan Drennon]

Kalen,

I was in that parking lot less than a year ago.  There is a fence and thick row of trees between 18 and the parking lot that probably got removed in the rendering.  Everyone else was snapping pix of some lone cypress.  I was trying to catch a glimpse of CPC (unsuccessfully).  Don't know where you'd move the lot given real estate values.

This is what it actually looks like now. Those trees weren't there in the 30's, although it looks like the lot was there but unpaved. Check out the historical aerial http://golfcoursehistories.com/CPC.html. I'm not sure if it was owned by the club or if it was always some kind of public lookout point. If you look at it now, there's no way to have a tee box on the island if that parking lot was originally there. I assume it wasn't but it would be interesting to find out. We know the island was staked for a tee box even before Mackenzie arrived on the property. Maybe the lookout point was a contributing factor to them not building the tee box.

[Kalen Braley]

Bryan,
 
I thought I read in the book on CPC  that they were concerned how well a bridge out to that point would hold up in a storm and so they decided not to do it on that basis, but I could be recalling that wrong.
 
P.S  I do think a tee box out there would be epic, and would be the cherry on the top to the amazing CPC experience....

[Joel_Stewart]

Last week we asked the member who's been there 35 years if the club has ever considered building the bridge and tee. He said to his knowledge it's never been discussed.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joel, Kalen, Bryan, et. al.,
 
The fact is that a tee and bridge could NEVER be built today because the club has made concessions to authorities which preclude that from ever happening.
 
The discussion of the tee and bridge should only be in the context of Raynor's remarks.
 
Had Raynor's suggestion been pursued, there would be no parking lot, etc, etc..
 
The question I posed is:  How would the hole have been configured ?

[Sean Leary]

Some tree removal on the left side would do wonders on 18...

[Bryan Drennon]

Bryan,
 
I thought I read in the book on CPC  that they were concerned how well a bridge out to that point would hold up in a storm and so they decided not to do it on that basis, but I could be recalling that wrong.
 
P.S  I do think a tee box out there would be epic, and would be the cherry on the top to the amazing CPC experience....

You're correct about the storm concerns. I was only offering that as a contributing factor. My rendering was directed at Pat's question "How would the hole have been configured". By using google earth overhead shots, it leaves little doubt as to what the hole would have looked like (minus some tree clearing that I guessed on). Everything else is already in place, ie bunkering, green site and even the placement of the tee (the island). No one is saying that it could be done now. I'm sure there's a zero percent chance of it, even considering the powerful membership. We were only investigating the idea of what the hole would look like if it would have been built with Raynor's tee box using the current hole configuration.

current 18th (no trees removed)



Rendering of "new" 18th hole. The only changes are removal of the trees next to the parking lot (which would have never been built and were planted sometime after the course opened) and a few of the trees on the left side of the fairway (my opinion of what might have been removed). All current bunkers and green site remain unchanged and in the same place. I left a couple of the trees on left side to help keep the integrity of tee shot on 17.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

The hole from the island tee would NOT look like the present hole.

It would have to be a far softer dogleg due to the distances and golfer's capabilities when Raynor made his suggestion

[Bill_McBride]

Bryan,

The hole from the island tee would NOT look like the present hole.

It would have to be a far softer dogleg due to the distances and golfer's capabilities when Raynor made his suggestion

So maybe the club wouldn't have planted all those trees now in the fairway?

[Bryan Drennon]

Bryan,

The hole from the island tee would NOT look like the present hole.

It would have to be a far softer dogleg due to the distances and golfer's capabilities when Raynor made his suggestion

I agree that it would have been too tough from that tee as is. Even if you left the routing intact, you would at least need to take out most of the trees down the right side. If you only used it as a current day "back or pro" tee, then the design would be fine as is. The 425 yard distance would not have been too long in Raynor's day, but you would have needed about 235 uphill to carry the short left bunker. I think if you take out the short left bunker, a couple of trees on the left and all of the trees on the right that are around the long right bunker, it could work. It would make it more of a slight dogleg right. Something like this.

[Bryan Drennon]

Bryan,

The hole from the island tee would NOT look like the present hole.

It would have to be a far softer dogleg due to the distances and golfer's capabilities when Raynor made his suggestion

So maybe the club wouldn't have planted all those trees now in the fairway?

I agree except that they do need a couple of those trees on the left to keep long hitters from driving it into the fairway on 18 from 17 tee.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

Given the year, weather and the equipment, I wouldn't be surprised if the hole would have been a par 5.

Hard to imagine it as a par 4 from that island tee.

[Jim Nugent]

Is it possible to get a photo of what the tee shot looks like from the rock? 

[Bill Vogeney]

Was lucky enough to play CPC last week-I am still on cloud nine. I can't imagine a more perfect golf course, a combination of fun to play and challenging. It is rare that I play a golf course for the the first time and remember every hole, every shot-like I did with CPC. So many incredible holes following the natural contours, 2, 7, 9, 14 and 17 are holes that comes to mind that just follow the land. Personally I even l loved 18. You have to hit a perfect tee shot with precise line and distance. Yes, I hit a perfect 4 hybrid then a 9 iron to 20 feet below the hole, so maybe I am biased.


BTW, driver into the wind on 16 to 30 feet for a low stress two putt par. Perhaps the greatest shot I have even hit given the circumstances.

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