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Dan Kelly

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Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #750 on: December 19, 2006, 10:23:15 AM »
I believe that I've repeatedly said that Macdonald and Whitten "advised" on the Merion project...

Say it ain't so! Whitten was involved, too?
« Last Edit: December 19, 2006, 10:23:31 AM by Dan Kelly »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
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JESII

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Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #751 on: December 19, 2006, 10:24:43 AM »
OK you "word freak", it's only a word...

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #752 on: December 19, 2006, 10:29:05 AM »
I believe that I've repeatedly said that Macdonald and Whitten "advised" on the Merion project...

Say it ain't so! Whitten was involved, too?

Someday around 2106, I can see an intrepid David Moriarty IV coming across this thread and making the case that we've not properly acknowledged Ron Whitten's role in the design creation of Merion Golf Club.  ;)  ;D

Someone will likely note the inconsistency that although Whitten did some design, Architects Golf Club and Erin Hills followed Merion by some 90 or so years.

A 1000 post thread will ensue.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 19, 2006, 10:31:39 AM by Mike Cirba »

Bryan Izatt

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Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #753 on: December 19, 2006, 12:28:36 PM »
David M,

The same question keeps popping up for you.  More than a week ago, JES started by asking,

Tom M and David M,

Is there some specific recognition either of you would like to bestow upon CBM for his involvement in Merion East? Acknowldeging his advisory and mentor type relationship with Wilson and his committee do not seem to be enough, what exactly would quench your thirst.....beyond Wayne and Tom stumbling into some demonstration of incompetence, that is...

I followed by asking you,

David M,

Could you clearly answer JES's question?  Or, let me rephrase it.  You said, some pages ago:

"Properly acknowledging CBM in no way diminishes a single thing you said about Wilson".

Could you clearly lay out for us what, in your mind, constitutes "properly acknowledging".  Clearly you want more acknowledgement than has been given so far.  Could you propose a statement of proper acknowledgement?  It'd help to clarify how far apart the two camps are.  

Your reply at the time was,

Bryan and JES,

Unless there is substantial evidence of its inaccuracy, I want to take the information regarding MacDonald's involvement at face value, no more and no less.  

In other words, completely present the unrebutted information about MacDonald's involvement without trying to discredit, discount, dismiss, or diminish it at all.  And do not try to bolster, exaggerate, or embolden the information, either.

I would also explain that, beyond the articles, specific information about the design and construction cannot be found; therefore it is impossible to determine the specific details regarding anyone’s role in the design and construction of the course.

The specific details of MacDonald's contributions will remain a mystery until more information is located.  

Hope this helps.

Unfortunately, I don't think the answer helped.  You have asked repeatedly for "proper acknowledgement", but you end by saying the specific details of MacDonald's contributions will remain a mystery until more information is located.  So, how can he be properly acknowledged.

Now Phillip is asking the same question,  

David,

I thought that I would ask you one more and whose answer would certainly aid in refocusing this as a discussion.

Since you have said a number of times that you want to see CBM get his proper credit for his participation in the creation of Merion, I ask this.

Could you please elaborate on what YOU (and this is your opinion) believe is the proper credit that CBM should be given and what credit he is not being given?

Your answer defers an answer until later today,

Phillip,

Nonetheless, at the risk you’ll find my answer an even bigger load, I’ll try to answer as best I can.

Unfortunately, it will take a bit of time, and I doubt I will get to it until tomorrow, probably tomorrow night.  

To assist you in the preparation of your answer, I'd suggest the following as a position on proper acknowledgement that you could support:

Regarding the construction (design) of the Merion East course, we the memebers of GCA.com acknowledge:

Merion was laid out by the following committee: Hugh I. Wilson, Chairman, R.S. Francis, H.G. Lloyd, R.E. Griscom, and Dr. Hal Toulmin.  These were the men on the committee charged with building a new course for the Merion membership.

We also acknowledge that Wilson was a likely a dictatorial Geens Committee chair who was not adverse to taking advice. He likely took advice from multiple sources, but likely did the sifting of the advice in its contribution to the construction of Merion. He studied green keeping and course construction as it was never studied before.

We also acknowledge that C. B. Macdonald and H.J. Whigham advised the committee.  We acknowledge that Wilson spent two days with Mr Macdonald at his bungalow near the National course and in one night absorbed more ideas on golf course construction than he had learned in all the years he had played. The advice consisted of sketches and explanations of the right principles of the holes that formed the famous courses abroad and had stood the test of time.

We acknowledge that Macnald and Wigham advised Wilson on courses to visit before his trip to Great Britain.

We acknowledge that Wilson was inspired by the great holes of Great Britain in laying out Merion East.

We also acknowledge that Macdonald made at least one site visit and gave his blessing to the ongoing work.

Finally, we acknowledge that credit and acknowledgement for specific aspects and features of the course cannot be given to any individual, based on the currently available information.


I hope this helps you form your response.  If you wish to continue the semantic argument around acknowledgement, perhaps you could also focus in on distinguishing the individual contributions of Whigham vs Macdonald - the two acknowledged adisers.  The two seem to be treated as one in many of the posts.  Were M&W really a tag team of one mind?  Or did they have specific areas of expertise upon which they advised Wilson et al.  Proper acknowlegement of Macdonald implies proper acknowledgement of Whigham.  Or is this also lost in the shadows of history.

T_MacWood

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #754 on: December 19, 2006, 12:49:44 PM »
Philip Young,

Does it seem that David Moriarty could have just answered your question in the same amount of time and space that he took to tell you he will answer it but not until later? I guess we can expect another 1000 word non-answer as he has done about 50 times already on this thread.

David,

If you take a look back at the post I referrenced as "the biggest load of crap..." you'll see that it is in fact a worthless post in a thread with all too many of them. You seem to be treading water here looking for someone to throw a piece of information on the table that might bail you out. Unfortunately, it seems you'll be treading for a while. There may well be more information on this subject, and this thread of yours may well deserve some of the credit as motivation for its discovery, but repeating the same thoughts over and over in new packaging is only doing one thing...hurting your desired reputation as a student and researcher of golf architecture. I am not suggesting you stop, and I am not telling you I am done with this thread. I am telling you that your position has become substantially weaker as this thread has evolved and it might be prudent to take the time and read some of the evidence on the table.

You have submitted M&W worked as advisors - nobody disagrees.

Tom or Wayne or Mike or Philip or somebody else have submitted that Wilson was the lead architect and deserves credit for Merion East in its original design and its evolution up to his death - MacWood disagrees  

To my knowledge Wayne has never claimed Wilson deserves credit for the original design.

You would like M&W properly acknowledged for their contributions - nobody disagrees - you have not been able to specify that acknowledgement so how could it possibly be given?

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #755 on: December 19, 2006, 01:34:47 PM »
Tom Paul,

Are you stealing my lines again?   ;D

Bryan,

I think your statement is much too heavy on citing the specific contributions of Macdonald and much too light on citing those of Wilson.  Shivas already proved that Macdonald had nothing to do with the layout of Merion based on his superior knowledge of sentence diagramming.   8)

In the words of Mad Matt Ward, it was clearly Wilson who did the heavy lifting at Merion, pardner.  

I think you've been listening to Moriarty too much!  You don't happen to be a lawyer, do you?   ;)
« Last Edit: December 19, 2006, 02:04:19 PM by Mike Cirba »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #756 on: December 19, 2006, 02:42:34 PM »
Tom MacWood,

I have corrected that part of my post.

Have your curiosities with regard to the evolution of Merion East been answered? Rather, have you come to terms with the reality that in the end it matters very little which specific member of a committee contributed each item to the finished product that was Merion East? Does it make sense that these men organized themselves to best accomplish the task of building a golf course when none brought prior course building experience to the table? Does it make sense that this organization process established Hugh Wilson as the Chairman of the committee and because of his aptitude for the task he made the decisions as to what happened?

Frankly, if you cannot accept those points at their face value I would really question what your motives are in this discussion.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #757 on: December 19, 2006, 03:01:35 PM »
Tom,

Just think how many posts would be here if that Morrison guy didn't delete all of his!   We'd even have pictures of his son standing across the street!!  ;D

And speaking of "flask architecture".   If you read American Golfer from June 1911, you'd have already known that this term was coined way back by CB Macdonald and HJ Whigham.  I know they were advising you back then, Tom.  They probably came up with Maintenance Meld, too.  ;)

john_stiles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #758 on: December 19, 2006, 03:55:22 PM »
If you are thinking NGLA,  also remember to thank H. J. Whigham and Devereux Emmet for aiding CBM in the original purchase of the land and in the laying out of the course.

But for Merion,   it seems to be clear to many at GCA that Hugh Wilson is the main person to thank.  On the other hand, flask posting would probably result in only Wilson receiving credit. ;)

So, seriously,  have there been any news articles from Philadelphia newspapers or found in USGA SEGL magazine records in the last week or so establishing anything other than CBM helping Wilson before Wilson's overseas trip ?

Is there anything found of CBM's assistance to Wilson on Merion after Wilson's overseas trip ?

Are there any articles placing CBM onsite at Merion at anytime ?   Any articles about CBM's visits to play golf, attend club dinners, tournaments, visits to Merion for U.S. Amateur, etc. ?

john_stiles

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Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #759 on: December 19, 2006, 03:56:27 PM »
Was CBM ever at Merion ?

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #760 on: December 19, 2006, 03:58:32 PM »
If you are thinking NGLA,  also remember to thank H. J. Whigham and Devereux Emmet for aiding CBM in the original purchase of the land and in the laying out of the course.

But for Merion,   it seems to be clear to many at GCA that Hugh Wilson is the main person to thank.  On the other hand, flask posting would probably result in only Wilson receiving credit. ;)

So, seriously,  have there been any news articles from Philadelphia newspapers or found in USGA SEGL magazine records in the last week or so establishing anything other than CBM helping Wilson before Wilson's overseas trip ?

Is there anything found of CBM's assistance to Wilson on Merion after Wilson's overseas trip ?

Are there any articles placing CBM onsite at Merion at anytime ?   Any articles about CBM's visits to play golf, attend club dinners, tournaments, visits to Merion for U.S. Amateur, etc. ?

John,

You need to go back and start reading at Page 1.  ;)

Seriously, there is really no new news here in the past week, or past month for that matter.   We're still waiting.  ;D
« Last Edit: December 19, 2006, 04:40:09 PM by Mike Cirba »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #761 on: December 19, 2006, 04:44:22 PM »
If you are thinking NGLA,  also remember to thank H. J. Whigham and Devereux Emmet for aiding CBM in the original purchase of the land and in the laying out of the course.


John,

Are you actually suggesting that Devie and Whigham were the men behind Macdonald the whole time??!!   :o :o :o
« Last Edit: December 19, 2006, 04:45:55 PM by Mike Cirba »

john_stiles

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Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #762 on: December 19, 2006, 04:59:26 PM »
MC,

Hammered. Can't touch that.

Well, at least some have thanked Whigham and Dev with helping as I stated.   But, I mentioned that as a followup to TEPaul's post about NGLA.

In any case,  I am waiting on some more Merion 'information'.  

The last post by TEP was informative and interesting and so I hope we get a few more things like that before this thread is gone.  Some of the other posts have been informative as well.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #763 on: December 19, 2006, 05:40:47 PM »
David Moriarty,

The President of Merion does not enjoy the arms length objectivity and the detached view that Behr and AWT enjoyed.

It was clearly beneficial for "Merion" to be "associated" with CBM in any form, as a member, advisor, designer or friend of the project or project managers.

If he wasn't "involved" in the routing, design and construction of Merion, it was in Merion's best interest to gain some form of association with CBM.

Hence, alleging that CBM "advised" or was "involved" would benefit Merion.

But, Behr and AWT gained NO benefit by citing Wilson's involvement.

What you and Tom MacWood seem to disregard is the total absence of any material evidence supporting CBM's involvement.  For 25 years, not one description of the work CBM is alleged to have performed was eveer noted.

If he was involved, why wouldn't HE describe his specific involvement in creating one of America's great courses in his book, "Scotland's Gift", written in 1928 ?

Why wouldn't he have described his specific contributions in any of the many publications available to him for over a 25 year period ?

And, why didn't anyone else describe his contributions ?

The answer is probably because he offered no specific advise.
That he wasn't involved in the routing, design and construction of the golf course.

I'm sure that there are a number of people who could say that they advised or were involved with a golf course project, yet, they didn't have any specific involvement in the routing, design and construction of the golf course.  Sebonack comes to mind.

T_MacWood

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #764 on: December 19, 2006, 06:09:33 PM »
John
I'll save you several hours of reading and a major headache. The condensed version of who designed the original East course: the design committee, headed by Wilson, advised by Macdonald & Whigham, and built by Pickering.

DMoriarty

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #765 on: December 20, 2006, 01:27:02 AM »
Phillip and Bryan,  

Bryan's summary covers quite a bit of it, but unfortunately he might want to speak for himself instead of everyone, since I don’t think too many agree with everything he has said, at least not consistenly.   I could have sworn there was even a response that suggested you put too heavy a weight on the work as a collaboration and too little emphasis on “facts” emphasizing Wilson’s role.  But posts come and go so fast on this thread that I am starting to think I am reading voices.  

Anyway, Bryan is acknowledging way more than his brethren.   For example . . .
-- Wayne Morrison doesn’t believe that there is any information about CBM’s involvement beyond Wilson’s initial trip to NGLA, and that we cannot conclude he was involved past this point without specific information detailing that involvement.  Of course Wayne also knows that even if CBM was specifically involved there would still be no specific information, so I am sure he isn’t holding his breath.  
-- TEPaul thinks that about all the credit must go to the people who were in Philadelphia who were there throughout.  
-- Mike Cirba claims he acknowledges CBM was an advisor, yet in the very same posts he minimizes and downplays the advisor reference, even describing CBM and Whigham’s role “as quite negligible and consultative only in a very broad, limited sense.”  He also concludes that Merion only referred to CBM (and apparently Whigham) as an advisor out of gratitude for his help before the trip, and that at most CBM was merely available if the committee had a problem.  Who knows where he came up with all that, but I surely haven’t seen any information which at all supports his conclusions.  

The point is that whatever they may occasionally say, very few actually agree that MacDonald played any sort of meaningful role after the Wilson’s pre-trip visit to NGLA.  It is easy to see just by glancing through the posts and looking at the flippant comments even regarding the possibility of CBM having a role.   The reason I explain this is that my only agenda has been to try and weed out some of the fallacious logic, false assumptions, and unsupported speculation which are being used to strip CBM of whatever acknowledgement he had received in the past.  To list the problems with the analysis would probably take half the length of this thread, but the main fallacy has been the ongoing claim that we know MacDonald was not involved, because if he had been there would be a record of his specific involvement.  Unfortunately, those behind this methodology are well aware that even if CBM had been specifically involved, no such specific evidence would exist.

So, as I have said numerous times, I have absolutely no idea what CBM specifically did at Merion and I don’t think anyone else does either, because the information is unavailable.  As TEPaul said, the record of who did what is likely lost forever.    Nonetheless there exists some information indicating that CBM and Whigham played an important role in the layout of the course.  

I am not writing a book and I don’t keep all of the information at my fingertips, but here is some of the information I find important.  I will start before Wilson’s trip because any acknowledgement of MacDonald must set the stage by explaining a bit about the importance of MacDonald to golf design in America in general, and MacDonald’s importance to Wilson in particular.

1.   MacDonald brought modern golf design to America.  He (and a few others) not only explicitly rejected what came before, he also brought back the principles underlying the great links courses.  Plus, he was an activist in spreading these principles throughout America.  In his agromony reports (AR), Wilson understood and emphasized the important role that CBM and NGLA have played in American golf design.  He even encourages everyone building or changing a course to study at NGLA as much as much as possible and to incorporate the principles underlying NGLA’s holes into their own courses.  If Wilson saw fit to credit CBM and NGLA as having this kind of blanket impact on design in America, then we ought to as well.  

2.  CMB taught about the principles underlying a great golf holes.  He not only demonstrated those principles present in the holes at NGLA, CBM also used sketches to explain the principles of the great holes overseas.  This apparently had a profound impact on Wilson as 5 or 6 years later he noted that he had learned more in one night about golf than he had previously learned in his lifetime of golf.  If it is that important to Wilson, then we ought to acknowledge it as well.    

3. CBM helped Wilson determine what Wilson should see on his trip overseas and Wilson apparently took his advice.   Ironically, despite CBM’s involvement in the planning of Wilson’s 6, 7, or 8 month trip (the trip length has grown with the thread,) many have  erroneously concluded that Wilson’s European vacation somehow breaks the causation chain between CBM’s teaching and the design of Merion.  They’ve even gone so far as to list out 8 months to imply that Wilson must have learned a lot of new and unique stuff, so we can forget about the CBM teachings as an influence.

This again ignores Wilson’s own words.   In Agronomy Reports Wilson notes that his trip to Europe served to confirm what he had learned from CBM at NGLA   And he did not encourage prospective course builders to go to Europe to study, but he sent them to NGLA, and encouraged them to incorporate the principles underlying the holes at NGLA (and Pine Valley) into their own courses.  

So there is no way to separate what Wilson learned from CBM, on the one hand, and what Wilson learned on his trip, on the other hand.  CBM blazed the trail for this approach to learning about architecture.  CBM also taught Wilson a great amount about golf course design and even introduced Wilson to the golf holes he would be seeing.  Wilson himself acknowledged CBM’s important role even in what Wilson learned on the trip.   If Wilson thought it important enough to acknowledge CBM about this, then we ought to as well.

4.   These influences alone undoubtedly had a tremendous, if indirect, impact on the early Merion.  Wilson speaks of MacDonald as if he was a mentor, and speaks of NGLA as if it was a holy site worthy of pilgramage.  So while it is impossible to actually point to any one single feature on the course which might have come from MacDonald, to deny his general influence defies common sense.   Wilson acknowledges his influence, so we should as well.  

DMoriarty

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #766 on: December 20, 2006, 01:37:12 AM »
Now, on to the actual creation of the early Merion course on Ardmore Avenue:  

5.   Based on all the available information, we have no choice but to conclude that MacDonald and Whigham advised the committee in the laying out of the course, and that their advice was significant and beneficial to the committee.

As far as I know, there are at least three contemporaneous accounts of MacDonald and Whigham being involved in the creation of Merion East; one concerned CBM’s inspection of the site, one account was written during the design of the course, and one account was written after the course was opened but while work was still apparently being done.  

-- In the December 1910 American Golfer, Tillinghast reported that CMB and Whigham had inspected Merion (apparently at the invitation of committee member R.E. Griscom) and “pronounced the new land to be admirably suited to the requirements of the game today.”  

-- In the May 1911 American Golfer, Tillinghast reports that the new course at Merion is “nearing completion in the planning.”  He also noted that CBM and Whigham had visited the site;  that “CBM and Whigham have been aiding the committee;”  that CBM and Whigham were greatly pleased over the prospects; and that CBM said that in his opinion seven of the holes equaled any in this country.  

-- In the January 1913 issue of Golf Illustrated, Walter Travis reviewed the new Merion, and noted that  CBM had been “of great assistance in an advisory way/”  and that CBM had told Travis that Merion “would have one of the best inland courses he had ever seen.”

These references have consistently been minimized as too vague,  or as lip-service, or as footnotes or snippets.  Or they have just been selectively edited, Mike Cirba does when describing the these references:  ” You'll notice [CBM] didn't say anything about [CBM’s] own role, or seven of the holes he designed, or advised on, or anything else but giving credit and blessing to a project that he helped Wilson initiate.  While CBM may not have, Travis and Tillinghast did.  They said he was there, that he “aided the committee” and that he was of great assistance.  

But mainly these quotes have been dismissed or discounted based on the faulty assumption that there would be more than this had CBM and Whigham really been “of great assistance” or had they really been “aiding the committee.”   We now all know that this argument is completely fallacious.  No record of the specific details exists one way or another, beside these accounts.  So we cannot discount CBM’s involvement based on the absence of a record—we’d have no record whether or not he was significantly involved.  Likewise, no one has offered any evidence to support the assumptions underlying the many variations on this theme, like the Why isn’t listed on CBM’s Resume? theory.

I see no reason why these three accounts should be dismissed so lightly.  The authors of the articles knew what was going on at Merion.   And they provided us with what may be the only progress reports from the course’s creation.   Throw them out and we are left with a completely empty contemporaneous record.   But I guess to some an empty record is preferable to one that acknowledges CBM’s involvement.  

A few more things of note about these three references:
   For those who argue that CBM would have tooted his own horn had he been involved should look at the source of these three reports.  It is MacDonald in at least two and possibly in all three of the articles.   In other words he was tooting his own horn.  
   For those who argue Wilson deserves the lion’s share of the credit, note that at this point Tillinghast and Travis have not even mentioned Wilson at all  Rather, they just mention the committee.  In fact the first reference to Wilson that I have seen was from 1913 and was in reference to his role as chair of the construction committee of the West Course.  

The next reference occurs after the 2nd course was built.  

-- In 1914 Robert Lesley wrote an article titled “The Merion Courses”  which acknowledged CBM and Whigham as advisors to the committee in laying out the course.   Leslie wasn’t a clueless journalist, but rather a prominent figure in American golf and, I think, the president of Merion during this the time.  His six page article is no snippet, footnote, or throw-away, but was rather a careful and concise history and description of the creation of the two new Merion courses.  In the article, Lesley covers three topics, (devoting roughly equal space to each) which can roughly be thought of as the history and creation of these courses, the differences between these courses, and notable holes on each courses (including the 7th (now the 3rd) which he calls the Redan, and the 10th which he compares to Prestwick’s Alps.)  
In the first part of the article, Lesley describes what he calls “the history that lead to this remarkable development in American golf.”   In other words, the history of the Merion courses. Lesley concisely covers a lot of ground, including:
The prior sad state of golf in America, especially Philadelphia;
Merion’s practical need for a new course;
  The two competing relocation plans (a course overlooking the Schuylkill Valley vs. a convenient location easily reachable by car and train) and the ultimate choice of the current site;
  The location of the clubhouse in relation to the railway station;
  The history and lineage of the clubhouse.
  The laying out of the first golf course.
  The immediate overcrowding of the new course.
  The details of the purchase of the land for the new course.
  The creation of the new course.
  A general thanks to all involved in the creation of the courses.

Like the rest of the information covered in the article, the description of the laying out of the course is brief, but to the point:

”The ground was found adapted for golf and a course was laid out upon it about three years ago by the following committee [names omitted] who had as advisers, Charles B. Macdonald and H. J. Whigham.” (my bolds)

That is it.  The entire description of laying out the course.    No further description of the nature of CBM’s involvement was provided.  

But the second course gets even less description—Lesley does not even mention by names those responsible for the second course.   Indeed, while Lesley provides a general thanks to all involved in both courses, the only people he singles out by name were the committee members (with Hugh Wilson identified as the chair) and MacDonald and Whigham.

Lesley’s article not only confirms that that CBM and Whigman advised on the laying out of the initial Merion, it also implies that Lesley thought their involvement significant enough to list them along with the committee.

-- Additionally, Mr. Stamm has posted that in Merion’s history, Tolhurt noted that Whigham and MacDonald continued to advise after the trip and that the committee had the benefit of their experience.

There may be more but that is what comes to mind now, with one important clarification:  This evidence has always been known and out there.  I bring nothing new at all.   The question for me has always been:  How do we treat this evidence.  I think we ought not to second guess those who were there, unless we have a compelling factual reason for doubting them.   This means no more unsupported supposition or post hoc pathology.  No more illogical conclusions drawn from unavailable evidence.  No more flippant dismissals.  No more continued attempts to discredit the information based on what we’d like to have happened.  

And we need to drop some of the illogical methodologies that have plagued this thread from the beginning.  

So that is about it. I may have forgotten a few references and I think that Tom MacWood has a few that I did not mention, but he can add them if he wants.   Taken together, this information makes up a substantial part of all we know about the initial creation of Merion.  To discredit it without factual support for so doing is unreasonable and insulting to Merion.  
« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 02:00:44 AM by DMoriarty »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #767 on: December 20, 2006, 10:19:01 AM »
Thanks, David.   Man, that must have taken some time!  Nice, job, seriously.  ;D

I do believe that if you had been that very clear in your initial post that you were disagreeing with Wayne and Tom's interpretation of Macdonald's role at Merion perhaps we could have cut to the chase quicker, but that's neither here nor there at this juncture.   Still, it does help to distill the issues and separate fact from speculation.  

And, despite saying that I used selected portions of quotes out of context (I have no idea what you might be referring to there), you've summed up my beliefs pretty accurately.

Please see my responses below.

Phillip and Bryan,  

So, as I have said numerous times, I have absolutely no idea what CBM specifically did at Merion and I don’t think anyone else does either, because the information is unavailable.  As TEPaul said, the record of who did what is likely lost forever.    Nonetheless there exists some information indicating that CBM and Whigham played an important role in the layout of the course.  

1.   MacDonald brought modern golf design to America.  He (and a few others) not only explicitly rejected what came before, he also brought back the principles underlying the great links courses.  Plus, he was an activist in spreading these principles throughout America.  In his agromony reports (AR), Wilson understood and emphasized the important role that CBM and NGLA have played in American golf design.  He even encourages everyone building or changing a course to study at NGLA as much as much as possible and to incorporate the principles underlying NGLA’s holes into their own courses.  If Wilson saw fit to credit CBM and NGLA as having this kind of blanket impact on design in America, then we ought to as well.  

Absolutely, and the historical record clearly reflects those facts.  

2.  CMB taught about the principles underlying a great golf holes.  He not only demonstrated those principles present in the holes at NGLA, CBM also used sketches to explain the principles of the great holes overseas.  This apparently had a profound impact on Wilson as 5 or 6 years later he noted that he had learned more in one night about golf than he had previously learned in his lifetime of golf.  If it is that important to Wilson, then we ought to acknowledge it as well.  

Again, all true and accurately reported historically

3. CBM helped Wilson determine what Wilson should see on his trip overseas and Wilson apparently took his advice.   Ironically, despite CBM’s involvement in the planning of Wilson’s 6, 7, or 8 month trip (the trip length has grown with the thread,) many have  erroneously concluded that Wilson’s European vacation somehow breaks the causation chain between CBM’s teaching and the design of Merion.  They’ve even gone so far as to list out 8 months to imply that Wilson must have learned a lot of new and unique stuff, so we can forget about the CBM teachings as an influence.

CBM certainly helped Wilson to determine what he should see on his trip overseas, and yes, I'm sure seeing those holes in person confirmed what CBM had conveyed.

But, this is also where you start to lose me.  Let's split the difference and call it seven months.   There is no way that one can study great courses all over GB for seven months and not see something, or gain a slightly different impression, or understand some of the nuances better than you would get even if you had spent two days with God Almighty Himself teaching you about architecture.   Macdonald set the context and parameters for WIlson's education; the trip itself surely filled in the details, and probably even the discrepancies.

For instance, one of the distinct differences between what Macdonald did at NGLA and what Wilson was asked to do at Merion was the difference between links and inland golf.   There were very few great inland courses in the world at the time but some were being built in the Heathlands.   But, even that sandy soil was quite different than the clay-based Merion.   I'm sure Macdonald was well aware of that difference and probably needed to learn a lot about how exactly he could bring some of those features he saw to an inland course on far different soil than most of the courses he saw.  

It is simply outrageous to suggest that he learned as much in 2 days as in the next 7 months of detailed study, even if Wilson continually gave Macdonald his well-deserved props.



This again ignores Wilson’s own words.   In Agronomy Reports Wilson notes that his trip to Europe served to confirm what he had learned from CBM at NGLA   And he did not encourage prospective course builders to go to Europe to study, but he sent them to NGLA, and encouraged them to incorporate the principles underlying the holes at NGLA (and Pine Valley) into their own courses.  

Yes, I'm sure his 7 month trip did confirm what he learned from CBM over those two days, but I'm also sure that he learned quite a bit more.   How could he not have, David?  He'd have to be an idiot!   ::)

And of course he encouraged course builders to go to NGLA or Pine Valley as those courses were obviously great and ACCESSIBLE.   Not many clubs could afford to send someone like WIlson abroad for 7 months as Merion was able to with Wilson, and not many had the luxury of having an existing course in play while planning a completely new one.  It's called maximizing your options.  


So there is no way to separate what Wilson learned from CBM, on the one hand, and what Wilson learned on his trip, on the other hand.  CBM blazed the trail for this approach to learning about architecture.  CBM also taught Wilson a great amount about golf course design and even introduced Wilson to the golf holes he would be seeing.  Wilson himself acknowledged CBM’s important role even in what Wilson learned on the trip.   If Wilson thought it important enough to acknowledge CBM about this, then we ought to as well.

No one is separating what Wilson learned from Macdonald from his trip overseas.   Macdonald set the stage, imparted a great deal of learned wisdom, and the 7 month journey then added to Wilson's knowledge, and certainly considerably so.  

Are you saying that Wilson didn't need to go to Great Britain?  That he would have learned just as much in those two days with Macdonald than he learned over 7 months studying courses, David??  

That is REALLY the foundation of this argument, isn't it?  I think you should come right out and say that if that is what you believe but it's certainly what is implied in your statements suggesting that we're trying to "separate the trip from what he learned from Macdonald".  

What I'm saying, and what I think Tom and Wayne are also saying is that he learned a LOT on that trip.   He had to...how could he not?  
     

4.   These influences alone undoubtedly had a tremendous, if indirect, impact on the early Merion.  Wilson speaks of MacDonald as if he was a mentor, and speaks of NGLA as if it was a holy site worthy of pilgramage.  So while it is impossible to actually point to any one single feature on the course which might have come from MacDonald, to deny his general influence defies common sense.   Wilson acknowledges his influence, so we should as well.  

David, this is probably a good juncture to ask the simple obvious question here.   If the Macdonald influence was so great on WIlson at this time, and then transferred to the early Merion by Wilson, why wasn't the Merion course similar to NGLA with holes all modelled after the great ones overseas?

Why did Wilson choose to break with the Macdonald mold?  Why did he break out a new, individual style that differs from the template style Macdonald, and then Raynor and Banks continued for the next 20 years?  

There is absolutely no question that CB taught WIlson a great deal, and no question that he had a lot of influence in Wilson's education and even in his ideas of what good architecture entailed.   That's a given, conceded, and well documented historically.  

What is intriguing to me is that while Macdonald's influence on Wilson was clearly "tremendous" as you say, Wilson also clearly went his own way in the design of Merion.

That to me suggests that he was a pretty precocious student, wouldn't you agree?
;)

T_MacWood

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #768 on: December 20, 2006, 10:28:48 AM »
We really don't have enough information to determine who did what on the original course. We've got huge group of people involved: Wilson, Francis, Lloyd, Griscom, Toulmin, Macdonald, Whigham and Pickering. There is no mention of who is responsbile for the routing. There is no mention of who came up with hole concepts. And we know the course was subsequently remodeled...in fact given a dramatic facelift....and we know who is responsible for those changes...changes which transformed the course into the historically recongized design...the course - more or less - we see today.

To make matters worse you have some conflicting information. That information I believe should be analyzed based upon when it was said, due to the fact that the course really had two different architectural states: the old (more linear, containing more famous overseas allusions); the new (more naturalistic, more flowing lines, five completely new holes, the elimination of many of those famous allusions...this transformation is documented as the work of Wilson or Wilson & Flynn). We are trying to determine who did what on the old, so the closer you get to 1912 the better IMO.

Just about ever reference between 1910 and 1916 has the committee, headed by Wilson, advised by M&W (Lesley, Tilly, Travis, Evans...Wilson's own brief report in 1916 seems to support this as well). One exception is Behr's article (1915) on greencommittees and the  best attributes for green chairmen. In the article there is no mention of who designed Merion, he does state Wilson has all the attributes of a good greenchairman (along with Macdonald & Leeds). Some would say this proves he designed the course...I think that is very generous interpretation.

The other conflicting report is by Alex Findlay in 1912. "Fred Pickering made Wollaaston, Woodland and Belmont, Mass; Lake Placid, NY and Atlanta, Ga., and other courses, too numerous to mention, but this his latest creation, far surpasses any of his previous achievements. He has had much his of his own way in the planting of the right seed, and in the general make-up of the course, and to him we owe thans for on the prettiest courses in America."

Once you get into the 20s and 30s Wilson's name become more prominent....for good reason IMO. As an example Tilly who reported on the committee and M&W work in 1910-1912 says in 1934 Merion is a monument to the late Hugh Wilson. Other reports at this time are similar, the one exception is Whigham in 1939, who lists the course among Macdonald's other great designs. What gets my attention with his comments, he was not a bistander, observer or reporter, he was actively involved in the project

Hopefully more information will be uncovered in the future and we will be able to substitute the speculation and conjecture with some facts.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 10:43:11 AM by Tom MacWood »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #769 on: December 20, 2006, 10:40:45 AM »
A couple timeline-related questions I have...when was CBM on site to confirm the "suitability of the land"? When was he on-site to "approve" of the near complete designs? And lastly, when was the routing problem solved which was described earlier on this thread about a committeeman solving the routing problem by swapping land which is now across Golf House road, as I recall?

Clarity on these questions might lend weight to CBM's potential involvement in the routing of the golf course...

Phil_the_Author

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #770 on: December 20, 2006, 10:54:01 AM »
One of the continued points that has been stressed throughout this thread is the perceived importance of CBM as an architect at the time that merion was being conceived in 1910-11.

For example, David wrote, "MacDonald brought modern golf design to America.  He (and a few others) not only explicitly rejected what came before, he also brought back the principles underlying the great links courses."

I don't agree with that statement nor do I accept the atated stature that a number have represented CBM as having at that time.

In May, 1939, at the announcement of CBM's death, Tillinghast wrote:

"In 1907 Macdonald became interested in the planning and building of golf courses..."

Question then, what had CBM designed between then and 1910 that would would have some on GCA calling him the greatest alive at that time?

Tilly went on, "... although he was a broker by profession, and after securing models of famous holes on British courses of that time, he more or less followed these designs in the building of the National... Some years later he designed the beautiful course, the Mid-Ocean, at bermuda. Numerous other courses were designed by him, still following his custom of working severely to the artificial construction of feplicas of British golf holes.

"I have known Charley Macdonald [this is the only time I have ever seen him called "Charley"] since the earliest days of golf in this country and for many years we have been rival course architects, and I really mean rivals for in many instances we widely disagreed. Our manner of designing courses never reconciled. I stubbornly insisted on following natural suggestions of terrain, creating new types of holes as suggested by Nature, even when resorting to artificial methods of construction. Charley, equally convinced that working strictly to models was best, turned out some famous courses. Throughout the years we argued good naturedly about it and that, always at variance it would seem. Now he is gone and I can only salute his memory..."

What seems readily apparent to me is that in 1910, CBM was JUST COMING into his own and was NOT the internationally respected designer that he would later become.

As far David's claim that "MacDonald brought modern golf design to America.  He (and a few others) not only explicitly rejected what came before, he also brought back the principles underlying the great links courses..." If he was designing new courses based upon models of Bristish courses many years old, how can this possibly be considere "modern golf design?"

Tilly, among the "few others" that David refers to, brought in the era of modern American golf course design. They sculpted the courses that the land offered rather than create copies of holes artificial in their making.

With all of that, I wonder if there were many back-room discussions of CBM's specific recommendations with Tilly and possibly others being critical? If so, this might also offer some explanation as to CBM's involvement being lessened or blunted and not overly-advertised as such.

Just some thoughts...
« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 10:55:19 AM by Philip Young »

T_MacWood

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #771 on: December 20, 2006, 10:54:33 AM »
The M&W visit #2 was reported in May 1911...which would mean it took place in March or April. I don't know when the extra land was purchased...it would be relatively easy to find out.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #772 on: December 20, 2006, 10:55:01 AM »
We really don't have enough information to determine who did what on the original course. We've got huge group of people involved: Wilson, Francis, Lloyd, Griscom, Toulmin, Macdonald, Whigham and Pickering. There is no mention of who is responsbile for the routing. There is no mention of who came up with hole concepts. And we know the course was subsequently remodeled...in fact given a dramatic facelift....and we know who is responsible for those changes...changes which transformed the course into the historically recongized design...the course - more or less - we see today.

Tom, has anyone, anywhere ever suggested that Francis, Lloyd, Griscom, or Toulmin laid out any course anywhere, ever?   That's smoke and mirrors, Tom.  

Also, I think your terminology of "facelift" if very misleading.   Yes, a number of holes that crossed Ardmore Ave changed, and some very few unnatural features were taken out, but 70% of the routing is the same today, and probably 60% of the entire course.

You try to make it sound that the original course looked like NGLA Part Deux, and then Wilson and Flynn naturalized it.   That's not true in the least.  


To make matters worse you have some conflicting information, which I believe you need to analyze based upon when it was said, due to the fact that the course really had two different architectural states: the old (more linear, containing more famous overseas allusions); the new (more naturalistic, more flowing lines, five completely new holes, the elimination of many of those famous allusions...this transformation is documented as the work of Wilson or Wilson & Flynn). We are trying to determine who did what on the old, so the closer you get to 1912 the better IMO.

Again, this idea that the original course looked like Macdonald is preposterous, as was the original post on this thread that suggested that the old 10th hole was an Alps like #3 at NGLA.   It's silly speculation trying to maximize the role of Macdonald when the course never looked ANYTHING like what Macdonald ever built.  

Just about ever reference between 1910 and 1916 has the committee, headed by Wilson, advised by M&W (Lesley, Tilly, Travis, Evans...Wilson's own brief report in 1916 seems to support this as well). One exception is Behr's article (1915) on greencommittees and the  best attributes for green chairmen. In the article there is no mention of who designed Merion, he does state Wilson has all the attributes of a good greenchairman (along with Macdonald & Leeds). Some would say this proves he designed the course...I think that is very generous interpretation.

Of course they reported it was by committee because there was a committee created within Merion charged with building a new golf course, and yes, Macdonald and Whigham did consult.  

However, you once again OMIT the CRUCIAL point of Behr's quote when you neglect to tell us that Behr stated that Macdonald, Leeds, and Wilson were all ideally suited for the role because they studied what it took to "construct" a course like no one before them."   In 1914 parlance, we're talking design, feature creation, lay out, grow in.   THAT is what was meant by Behr, and you seemingly omit it because it doesn't fit in with your theory.


The other conflicting report is by Alex Findlay in 1912. "Fred Pickering made Wollaaston, Woodland and Belmont, Mass; Lake Placid, NY and Atlanta, Ga., and other courses, too numerous to mention, but this his latest creation, far surpasses any of his previous achievements. He has had much his of his own way in the planting of the right seed, and in the general make-up of the course, and to him we owe thans for on the prettiest courses in America."

You are almost certainly correct that Pickering had more to do with the initial course than anyone but Wilson, including Macdonald and Whigham.   Pickering had experience building courses prior, he was onsite full time, he evidently had WIlson's confidence in his abilities (if not his drinking) and I would not be surprised if more is uncovered here that points to his involvement in the layout.

Once you get into the 20s and 30s Wilson's name become more prominent....for good reason IMO. As an example Tilly who reported on the committee and M&W work in 1910-1912 says in 1934 Merion is a monument to the late Hugh Wilson. Other reports at this time are similar, the one exception is Whigham in 1939, who lists the course among Macdonald's other great designs. What gets my attention with his comments, he was not a bistander, observer or reporter, he was actively involved in the project

Tillinghast was onsite often during the early years and beyond and he knew Macdonald, Whigham, and all the others.  They were also all still alive at the time he wrote that Wilson was the designer of Merion.  

In the historical context that's been outlined, and had been reported over and over at the time he said it, my only logical conclusion is that Whigham was smoking crack in 1939.
;)

Hopefully more information will be uncovered in the future and we will be able to substitute the speculation and conjecture with some facts.


T_MacWood

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #773 on: December 20, 2006, 10:59:37 AM »
One of the continued points that has been stressed throughout this thread is the perceived importance of CBM as an architect at the time that merion was being conceived in 1910-11.

For example, David wrote, "MacDonald brought modern golf design to America.  He (and a few others) not only explicitly rejected what came before, he also brought back the principles underlying the great links courses."

I don't agree with that statement nor do I accept the atated stature that a number have represented CBM as having at that time.

In May, 1939, at the announcement of CBM's death, Tillinghast wrote:

"In 1907 Macdonald became interested in the planning and building of golf courses..."

Question then, what had CBM designed between then and 1910 that would would have some on GCA calling him the greatest alive at that time?

Tilly went on, "... although he was a broker by profession, and after securing models of famous holes on British courses of that time, he more or less followed these designs in the building of the National... Some years later he designed the beautiful course, the Mid-Ocean, at bermuda. Numerous other courses were designed by him, still following his custom of working severely to the artificial construction of feplicas of British golf holes.

"I have known Charley Macdonald [this is the only time I have ever seen him called "Charley"] since the earliest days of golf in this country and for many years we have been rival course architects, and I really mean rivals for in many instances we widely disagreed. Our manner of designing courses never reconciled. I stubbornly insisted on following natural suggestions of terrain, creating new types of holes as suggested by Nature, even when resorting to artificial methods of construction. Charley, equally convinced that working strictly to models was best, turned out some famous courses. Throughout the years we argued good naturedly about it and that, always at variance it would seem. Now he is gone and I can only salute his memory..."

What seems readily apparent to me is that in 1910, CBM was JUST COMING into his own and was NOT the internationally respected designer that he would later become.

As far David's claim that "MacDonald brought modern golf design to America.  He (and a few others) not only explicitly rejected what came before, he also brought back the principles underlying the great links courses..." If he was designing new courses based upon models of Bristish courses many years old, how can this possibly be considere "modern golf design?"

Tilly, among the "few others" that David refers to, brought in the era of modern American golf course design. They sculpted the courses that the land offered rather than create copies of holes artificial in their making.

With all of that, I wonder if there were many back-room discussions of CBM's specific recommendations with Tilly and possibly others being critical? If so, this might also offer some explanation as to CBM's involvement being lessened or blunted and not overly-advertised as such.

Just some thoughts...

Phil
Macdonald became interested in building and planning golf courses in 1907?

I'm not sure how you can analyze the history of golden age golf architecture without having a solid understanding of Macdonald's career. I would think everyone interested in the subject (much less a historian) would have at least read Macdonald's book on the subject and Bahto & Gib's.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 11:06:02 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #774 on: December 20, 2006, 11:23:46 AM »
Sully:

The solution to the routing problem you alluded to dealt with essentially the second half of #15 and the first half of #16.

The solution to that problem was the brainstorm of Richard Francis, a member of the Merion committee who may've had engineering training. In Francis's own words he mentioned his idea of swapping land came to him one night near midnight and he got on his bicycle at that point and got approval for it. That essentially made the quality in both a design and routing sense of #15 and particularly the great Quarry hole fall into place immediately. I doubt any of them called Macdonald in the middle of the night for his advice and approval too.  ;)

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