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T_MacWood

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #600 on: December 13, 2006, 12:08:40 AM »
To my knowledge Whigham is pretty much unimpeachable. Although I'm certain - in no time - he'll be thrown under the bus with his old friend CB.[/b]


Tom, please. I, for one, am not trying to throw CBM under the bus. I admire him greatly. It's just incredible to me how it doesn't seem possible to some that another man such as Wilson could not do what Macdonald had just done himself just a few years before. Look acroos the pond and seek ideas, and if he saw fit, incorporate the ideas into what he thought made a good course.

It sounds easy, but I suspect its more difficult than one would think to convert what you see overseas to the ground. If I were in Wilson's shoes I'd sure look for experienced guidance. It appears that is what he did.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 12:17:20 AM by Tom MacWood »

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #601 on: December 13, 2006, 12:10:51 AM »
Tom, who helped CBM when he started here?
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

T_MacWood

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #602 on: December 13, 2006, 12:16:21 AM »
At the NGLA he was assisted by Travis, Emmet, Whigham, Hutchinson and Low...before that in Chicago it was more hit and miss.

Phil_the_Author

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #603 on: December 13, 2006, 12:56:54 AM »
Tom, you asked, "If you don't know how the course evolved from 1911 until 1925 how can you conclude Tilly's comment in 1934 are illustrative of who did what in 1911?"

I can because Tilly was there and none of us were.

Earlier in the thread, and before you ask I'm not going to bother looking up exactly where, you used Tilly as a reliable authority in a statement about Merion. You can't back off on that now.

Tilly was there and stated that "that the Merion course was planned and developed by Hugh Wilson."

In addition, Tilly lamented how very fewpeople in the 30's knew that Wilson had designed the course, so evidently iether he was reading comments wrongly attributing its design to others or had conversations with some who were unaware of Wilson's achievement.

Again, Tom, he was there and would know. Does his statement preclude CBM from having influenced Wilson? No, and I didn't say that it did.

That is why the other quotes from Behr and Thomas are so important as they define Wilson's abilities to design and build a course of Merion's stature at the very time he was doing it. They also define Wilson as a person and describe his personality in a manner that shows him to not be the type to listen and follow much in the form of advice.

In my opinion, it is their comments that INDIRECTLY imply that few pieces of advice may have been implemented by others in the design of Merion.

You also stated that, "Knowing the architectrual history of the NGLA and Merion I can confidently say the quote does not shed any light on the early architectural history of the NGLA or Merion."

Not knowing the history of either course to any absolute extent, I maintain that your conjecture is incorrect at least as far as Merion is concerned.

The personalities of the people involved are very important in getting a proper understanding of what actually occurred back then since we don't know for certain what did.

 
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 01:12:43 AM by Philip Young »

T_MacWood

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #604 on: December 13, 2006, 06:15:31 AM »
Tom, you asked, "If you don't know how the course evolved from 1911 until 1925 how can you conclude Tilly's comment in 1934 are illustrative of who did what in 1911?"

I can because Tilly was there and none of us were.

Earlier in the thread, and before you ask I'm not going to bother looking up exactly where, you used Tilly as a reliable authority in a statement about Merion. You can't back off on that now.

Tilly was there and stated that "that the Merion course was planned and developed by Hugh Wilson."

In addition, Tilly lamented how very fewpeople in the 30's knew that Wilson had designed the course, so evidently iether he was reading comments wrongly attributing its design to others or had conversations with some who were unaware of Wilson's achievement.

Again, Tom, he was there and would know. Does his statement preclude CBM from having influenced Wilson? No, and I didn't say that it did.

That is why the other quotes from Behr and Thomas are so important as they define Wilson's abilities to design and build a course of Merion's stature at the very time he was doing it. They also define Wilson as a person and describe his personality in a manner that shows him to not be the type to listen and follow much in the form of advice.

In my opinion, it is their comments that INDIRECTLY imply that few pieces of advice may have been implemented by others in the design of Merion.

You also stated that, "Knowing the architectrual history of the NGLA and Merion I can confidently say the quote does not shed any light on the early architectural history of the NGLA or Merion."

Not knowing the history of either course to any absolute extent, I maintain that your conjecture is incorrect at least as far as Merion is concerned.

The personalities of the people involved are very important in getting a proper understanding of what actually occurred back then since we don't know for certain what did.


Do you think Behr, Tilly and Thomas's comments shed any light on what Macdonald & Whigham did or didn't do in 1911 (the theme of this thread)? I don't. Do Tilly's 1934 comments shed any light on Flynn's contribution? No, not exactly.

To my knowledge of Behr, Tilly, Thomas and Whigham, Whigham was the only one actively involved in the project.

At this point all we know is that Merion was laid out by the committee, headed by Wilson, advised by M&W.

IMO we need more research and less conjecture.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 08:12:08 AM by Tom MacWood »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #605 on: December 13, 2006, 08:36:08 AM »
Tom M and David M,

Is there some specific recognition either of you would like to bestow upon CBM for his involvement in Merion East? Acknowldeging his advisory and mentor type relationship with Wilson and his committee do not seem to be enough, what exactly would quench your thirst.....beyond Wayne and Tom stumbling into some demonstration of incompetence, that is...

Jim,

I've been asking that question all along, as well.  Perhaps we'll never hear a straight answer?   ::)  

What is it that David and Tom M. hope to accomplish here?  What additional credit are they hoping to give posthumously to Macdonald & Whigham, even in the absence of providing not a single new shred of evidence that they deserve more?

This thread has been valuable for unearthing and distributing information from fellows like Tillinghast, Thomas, and Behr (or White? ;)) who clearly worked directly with Wilson through those years, who were onsite regularly, and who made very crystalline clear who the architect of the original course at Merion was.  

David can say all he wants that we have the wrong "smoking gun", but is he really being forthcoming?   Isn't the real purpose of this thread to cast doubt on whether Wilson actually designed Merion East, or whether he was just somehow Macdonald's errand boy, hopelessly lost in the task at hand without the wise and sage and continued counsel of CB Macdonald?

The fact that Macdonald and Whigham "advised" in some capacity has been noted by history and has been stipulated by everyone here.   However, if their role had been more relevant than what is already known, why wasn't it noted by Tillie, by Thomas, by Behr, by news accounts of the time that clearly pointed to Wilson as the one who "laid out both courses at Merion"?

Why did Charles Macdonald write not a single word about his involvement at Merion from 1910 til his death 29 years later, even though he authored a complete book on golf and wrote extensively about his courses?

We keep hearing from Tom MacWood that the course was "redesigned" between 1912 and 1914, but what proof exists to back that assertion?   Remember that at this time, the old Merion course in Haverford had closed, membership was literally bursting at the seams, so much so that less than a year after the East opened in 1912, construction began and the West course, which opened in 1914.   Is he telling us that along with everything necessary to architect, build, and construct the West course, Wilson was also wholly redesigning the East course simultaneously?   Where the hell where the members supposed to play?  

The evidence is very clear here.  

It has been postulated that somehow Macdonald and Whigham deserve some additional credit for the Merion East course that history has neglected to rightfullly provide them.  Unfortunately, every angle supporting this hypothesis has been exhausted, and come up empty.   If anything, ironically, this thread only proves that Macdonald and Whigham actually probably had LESS to do with the actual original design at Merion than had been suspected previously.

So, unless someone besides David and Tom Macwood wants to step forward and say they've been convinced to give additional credit to Macdonald and Whigham based on what's been presented, I think we're about done here.   :P ;D

After all, if that isn't the purpose of this thread, and what David was hoping to accomplish, then I hope David can finally tell us what his point is!  ;)
 

« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 08:40:59 AM by Mike Cirba »

T_MacWood

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #606 on: December 13, 2006, 09:18:38 AM »
Jim,

I've been asking that question all along, as well.  Perhaps we'll never hear a straight answer?   ::)  

What don't you understand about my answer no one knows precisely what M&W did in 1911/1912. No one knows precisely what Wilson did in 1911/1912. No one knows what anyone did in 1911/1912. Do you want us to make up a story a al TE Paul?

What is it that David and Tom M. hope to accomplish here?  What additional credit are they hoping to give posthumously to Macdonald & Whigham, even in the absence of providing not a single new shred of evidence that they deserve more?

Hopefully someone will be inspired to find new information. How much time have you and JES devoted to discovering exactly who did what and when at Merion?

This thread has been valuable for unearthing and distributing information from fellows like Tillinghast, Thomas, and Behr (or White? ;)) who clearly worked directly with Wilson through those years, who were onsite regularly, and who made very crystalline clear who the architect of the original course at Merion was.  

Tillinghast, Thomas and Behr were on site regularly? They make it crystal clear who the architect was of the original course? I don't think you can judge one way or the other based on their quotes what specifically Wilson, Macdonald or Whigham did in 1911/1912. Should we interpert Tilly's 1934 quote to mean Flynn had no part in the design of Merion? I don't think so.

David can say all he wants that we have the wrong "smoking gun", but is he really being forthcoming?   Isn't the real purpose of this thread to cast doubt on whether Wilson actually designed Merion East, or whether he was just somehow Macdonald's errand boy, hopelessly lost in the task at hand without the wise and sage and continued counsel of CB Macdonald?

I'm sure everyone has an opinion of what the purpose of this thread was just as everyone has an opinion of who did what at Merion. It really doesn't matter what the purpose was...this thread has shown that noone really knows who did what in 1911/1912 and that further research is neccessary.

The fact that Macdonald and Whigham "advised" in some capacity has been noted by history and has been stipulated by everyone here.   However, if their role had been more relevant than what is already known, why wasn't it noted by Tillie, by Thomas, by Behr, by news accounts of the time that clearly pointed to Wilson as the one who "laid out both courses at Merion"?

Tilly did note M&W's involvement. Behr and Thomas did not comment on who designed Merion. It sound like you see this as Macdonald vs Wilson, winner take all. I don't see it that way.

Why did Charles Macdonald write not a single word about his involvement at Merion from 1910 til his death 29 years later, even though he authored a complete book on golf and wrote extensively about his courses?

Who knows, at this point it is a mystery...he clearly was involved.

We keep hearing from Tom MacWood that the course was "redesigned" between 1912 and 1914, but what proof exists to back that assertion?   Remember that at this time, the old Merion course in Haverford had closed, membership was literally bursting at the seams, so much so that less than a year after the East opened in 1912, construction began and the West course, which opened in 1914.   Is he telling us that along with everything necessary to architect, build, and construct the West course, Wilson was also wholly redesigning the East course simultaneously?   Where the hell where the members supposed to play?  

I don't believe I said he began redsigning the course in 1912. From the magazine reports the work was done piece-meal.

The evidence is very clear here.  

It has been postulated that somehow Macdonald and Whigham deserve some additional credit for the Merion East course that history has neglected to rightfullly provide them.  Unfortunately, every angle supporting this hypothesis has been exhausted, and come up empty.   If anything, ironically, this thread only proves that Macdonald and Whigham actually probably had LESS to do with the actual original design at Merion than had been suspected previously.

Less? Please explain. The one thing I learned is that there really no evidence that Wilson designed the West course. I mistakenly thought that was a given.

So, unless someone besides David and Tom Macwood wants to step forward and say they've been convinced to give additional credit to Macdonald and Whigham based on what's been presented, I think we're about done here.   :P ;D

After all, if that isn't the purpose of this thread, and what David was hoping to accomplish, then I hope David can finally tell us what his point is!  ;)
 
I don't see anyone stepping forward and providing any new information to prove who did what in 1911/12.


« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 09:25:49 AM by Tom MacWood »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #607 on: December 13, 2006, 09:58:37 AM »
Tom,

Why would anyone read this thread and feel inspired to search out more about Macdonald & Whigham's involvement and role at Merion?

What light has been shed, or what new facts have been uncovered concerning their "advising" that would lead anyone to conclude that they had more than a purely perfunctory role?

We have varied and numerous contemporaraneous accounts crediting Wilson.   While we don't know the details, and that would certainly be nice to know (for instance, was he really inspired by the Alps at Prestwick in designing his old 10th?), we do know for certain that he was the guy in charge, credited by numerous accounts as the architect, and within months time, asked to architect other courses as well.

What in the historical record, which already credits Macdonald and Whigham as "advisors", should anyone possibly be looking for if it doesn't exist at Merion, it doesn't exist in Macdonald's papers, it doesn't exist in Macdonald's articles, it doesn't exist in any detailed accounts of the time?

And more importantly, what has been shown here about M&W's possible involvement that would lead any reasonably sane person to conclude that they had a larger role that needed to be researched, publicized, and highlighted to the golf history world at large?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 10:07:40 AM by Mike Cirba »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #608 on: December 13, 2006, 10:11:08 AM »
I'm not sure I have the temperment to read through the 20 responses averaging about 750 words each since I last checked in.

Can someone tell me if Moriarty or MacWood addressed their goal in this conversation yet?

It seems pretty clear that Wilson laid out and desogned the golf course and M&W were available for advice if needed. Therefor, like a chef is responsible for what comes out of his kitchen, Wilson gets full credit for everything and the others get their name on the tag.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 10:12:53 AM by JES II »

T_MacWood

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #609 on: December 13, 2006, 10:11:28 AM »
Mike
If this thread has proved anything it has proved how little is known about who did what regarding the design of the original Merion-East (and evidently the West too). I'm sure there are naturally inquisitive people out there who would like to get to the bottom of this. I for one am curious to find the truth. Hopefully there is more info to be found. I know I'm not going quit looking.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #610 on: December 13, 2006, 10:13:44 AM »
I'm not sure I have the temperment to read through the 20 responses averaging about 750 words each since I last checked in.

Can someone tell me if Moriarty or MacWood addressed their goal in this conversation yet?

One word.

No.

Ok...more.

Perhaps when hell freezes over.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #611 on: December 13, 2006, 10:17:49 AM »
Mike
If this thread has proved anything it has proved how little is known about who did what regarding the design of the original Merion-East (and evidently the West too). I'm sure there are naturally inquisitive people out there who would like to get to the bottom of this. I for one am curious to find the truth. Hopefully there is more info to be found. I know I'm not going quit looking.

Tom,

Perhaps Tillinghast and Max Behr are a couple of numb nuts who didn't know what they were talking about when they said Wilson designed Merion?  

Perhaps they meant to say, "with Macdonald and Whigham pulling the strings", but they just plum forgot?   ::)

T_MacWood

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #612 on: December 13, 2006, 10:23:07 AM »
Tom MacWood,

Who deserves more credit for the initial design of Merion East  Macdonald and Whigham versus Fred Pickering?  Why is your focus Macdonald given the lack of information available on him and the NGLA squad?  I find it hard to believe you are convinced that Macdonald had a significant role in the specific design of Merion East given the material on hand at this time.

Search for the answers to the questions about Macdonald at Merion and let us know when there is something worth discussing.  For now, there is nothing further to discuss regarding Macdonald Whigham and Raynor at Merion as fascinating a story as it can be--it just isn't right now and may well never be.  

Will this thread be put to rest until then?  I hope so.

Wayne
I'm all for adding Pickering and Flynn into the discusion. While were at it we should explore any possible involvement of Colt or Beale. At this point with so little known I don't think we should exclude anyone.

T_MacWood

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #613 on: December 13, 2006, 10:26:37 AM »
Mike
If this thread has proved anything it has proved how little is known about who did what regarding the design of the original Merion-East (and evidently the West too). I'm sure there are naturally inquisitive people out there who would like to get to the bottom of this. I for one am curious to find the truth. Hopefully there is more info to be found. I know I'm not going quit looking.

Tom,

Perhaps Tillinghast and Max Behr are a couple of numb nuts who didn't know what they were talking about when they said Wilson designed Merion?  

Perhaps they meant to say, "with Macdonald and Whigham pulling the strings", but they just plum forgot?   ::)

I don't believe Behr mentioned anyone designing Merion. Tilly did and so did Whigham.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #614 on: December 13, 2006, 11:03:23 AM »
Tom MacWood,

I had understood that Whigham was NOT an active design associate, rarely if ever getting involved in the creative process.  Is my understanding incorrect ?

In addition to Merion Whigham collaborated at NGLA, Chicago, Piping Rock, Sleepy Hollow and Lido.

Collaborated is such a general, non-descript term.
Exactly what did he do at those courses ?
It's been reported that he did NOT get engaged in any design work.  Would you agree with that ?  Or, do you have evidence to the contrary ?
[/color]

I"m also curious about your remark concerning the demise of Lido by 1939.  In what way was it a "shadow of its former self" ?  From a maintainance standpoint or an architectural standpoint

Both.

How did the architecture deteriorate ?
[/color]

With respect to Whigham's attribution of the design credit for Merion, you posted that.  To state that the comment was taken out of context because preceeding info was omitted, begs the question, are you selecting quotes or portions of quotes and leaving out vital qualifying information ?

I wasn't trying to trick you. If you have the Evangelist of Golf you'll find it in there.

Where I'll find the rest of the passage isn't the issue.
The issue is that you posted an incomplete or out of context quote to bolster your position, and that's disengenuous.

It creates doubt as to the veracity of other quotes you've posted and whether or not they're incomplete, misleading or out of context.
[/color]

The quote you posted is quite clear.
Whigham states that CBM & SR designed Merion.
If information was omitted that would have qualified that statement, then, you were obligated to post the caveat or qualifier.  To omit it is intellectually dishonest.

I'm surprised you haven't read Bahto's Macdonald biography.

I have, but, don't try to deflect the issue.

You posted that, not for my benefit, but for those tuned in to GCA.com in an attempt to reinforce your position, and in doing so, you were being intellectually dishonest with those meant to read your post.
[/color]

Don't you find it odd that Whigham makes this statement 25 years removed from Merion's creation ?  That a quarter of a century passed before anyone associated with CBM attempts to claim CBM's involvement with Merion, let alone that Merion is a CBM-SR design ?

Are you thinking conspiracy theory or revisionism? I don't find odd that he would list Macdonald's accomplishments following his death, afterall Macdonald & Whigham's involvement at Merion was widely reported.

If it was so widely reported why can't anyone find one report that specifically identifies, qualifies and quantifies their involvement ?

To first mention and attribute the design credit of Merion to CBM&SR 25 years after the course was built seems more than odd.  Just answer one more question in this post.
[size=4x]
If they designed the course, as Whigham alleges, why did they all keep it a secret for 25 years ?[/size]


Why do you find Whigham's mention odd? [/b]

Because he waited 25 years after the golf course was built to claim that CBM & SR designed it.  Are you going to tell me that Whigham, who you claim was CBM's design PARTNER, knew all along that CBM & SR designed Merion, but, kept it a secret from the golfing world until shortly after CBM's death ?
[/color]

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #615 on: December 13, 2006, 11:08:54 AM »

I don't believe Behr mentioned anyone designing Merion. Tilly did and so did Whigham.

Tom,

If you choose to read Behr's very clear words that way, you slice the English language even more than Bill Clinton. ;)   Perhaps we should debate what "it" means?  

Where was Whigham for 29 years while the rest of the golf world was busy heralding Wilson's great success in designing Merion?   It's preposterous that he or Macdonald wouldn't have come forward claiming credit prior had it been due when the rest of the golf world had obviously made a HUGE mistake and relegated their supposed GIGANTIC LEAD role to "advisors" of indeterminate nature.

Is there any doubt what Behr is saying below, written in 1914, shortly after the East course opened;

"By far the best work in this or any other country has not been done by committees but by dictators. Witness Mr. Herbert Lees at Myopia, Mr. C.B. McDonald at the National, and Mr. Hugh Wilson at the Merion Cricket Club. These dictators, however, have not been adverse to taking advice. In fact they have taken advice from everywhere, but they themselves have done the sifting. They have studied green keeping and course construction as it was never studied before..."

Tom...as you know, the terms "constructed" and "architected" were used almost interchangeably back in the very early days when the very idea of building a golf course was not a very well known process and had no standard nomenclature.   To somehow imply that what Behr meant is that Wilson simply knew how to dig holes and grow grass is simply not being intellectually honest with us.

Using your attempts at mincing words, are we to similarly conclude that Leeds at Myopia and Macdonald at NGLA were just glorified ditch-diggers as well???  ::)

« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 11:11:01 AM by Mike Cirba »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #616 on: December 13, 2006, 11:27:48 AM »
David M,

Could you clearly answer JES's question?  Or, let me rephrase it.  You said, some pages ago:

"Properly acknowledging CBM in no way diminishes a single thing you said about Wilson".

Could you clearly lay out for us what, in your mind, constitutes "properly acknowledging".  Clearly you want more acknowledgement than has been given so far.  Could you propose a statement of proper acknowledgement?  It'd help to clarify how far apart the two camps are.  

Trying again...paging Mr. Moriarty.

We're all waiting with bated breath.   :-\

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #617 on: December 13, 2006, 11:53:04 AM »
Mike Cirba,

How can you properly acknowledge something when you don't know exactly what it is that you're acknowledging ?

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #618 on: December 13, 2006, 11:57:07 AM »
Mike Cirba,

How can you properly acknowledge something when you don't know exactly what it is that you're acknowledging ?

BINGO.

Perhaps David or Tom can tell us.   ::)

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #619 on: December 13, 2006, 11:59:33 AM »
Mike Cirba,

Did you know that I was involved at Sebonack ?

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #620 on: December 13, 2006, 12:00:34 PM »
Mike Cirba,

Did you know that I was involved at Sebonack ?

Patrick,

That's impossible.  I designed Sebonack!   ;D

ForkaB

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #621 on: December 13, 2006, 12:26:35 PM »
I can't wait until the GCA "researchers" of the 22nd century recover this little bit of cyberspace...... :o

T_MacWood

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #622 on: December 13, 2006, 12:27:44 PM »

I don't believe Behr mentioned anyone designing Merion. Tilly did and so did Whigham.

Tom,

If you choose to read Behr's very clear words that way, you slice the English language even more than Bill Clinton. ;)   Perhaps we should debate what "it" means?  

Where was Whigham for 29 years while the rest of the golf world was busy heralding Wilson's great success in designing Merion?   It's preposterous that he or Macdonald wouldn't have come forward claiming credit prior had it been due when the rest of the golf world had obviously made a HUGE mistake and relegated their supposed GIGANTIC LEAD role to "advisors" of indeterminate nature.

I don't know where he was...probably the same place Wilson, Flynn, Macdonald, etc was when it came to not discussing who did what.

Is there any doubt what Behr is saying below, written in 1914, shortly after the East course opened;

"By far the best work in this or any other country has not been done by committees but by dictators. Witness Mr. Herbert Lees at Myopia, Mr. C.B. McDonald at the National, and Mr. Hugh Wilson at the Merion Cricket Club. These dictators, however, have not been adverse to taking advice. In fact they have taken advice from everywhere, but they themselves have done the sifting. They have studied green keeping and course construction as it was never studied before..."

Tom...as you know, the terms "constructed" and "architected" were used almost interchangeably back in the very early days when the very idea of building a golf course was not a very well known process and had no standard nomenclature.   To somehow imply that what Behr meant is that Wilson simply knew how to dig holes and grow grass is simply not being intellectually honest with us.

Using your attempts at mincing words, are we to similarly conclude that Leeds at Myopia and Macdonald at NGLA were just glorified ditch-diggers as well???  ::)



Thanks for explaining it. It is very clear now that Wilson designed Merion according to Behr...I'm sure he wasn't referring to the well publicized resconstruction work Wilson had been undertaking. This column on green committees is no doubt absolutely conclusive. Wow!
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 12:56:28 PM by Tom MacWood »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #623 on: December 13, 2006, 12:34:49 PM »
Mike Cirba,

No Mike, I was really "involved" with Sebonack.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #624 on: December 13, 2006, 12:46:22 PM »
Patrick

Didn't Tom Doak visit with you at GCGC prior to his work at Pacific Dunes, Barnbougle Dunes, and others?   Can you now confirm for us that you taught him everything you know?  ;)

Tom MacWood,

I thought you clarified that the "well publicized reconstruction work" happened later than the 1912-1914 period?  Behr wrote this article in 1914.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 12:54:44 PM by Mike Cirba »