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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #350 on: December 06, 2006, 05:49:59 PM »

Do you consider the UK template and the US template Alps holes to be similar or the same?  Are there two templates, or just one for Alps holes?

They're sequential, evolutionary.

The template hole in the U.S. evolved DIRECTLY from the 17th at Prestwick
[/color]

How strict must the adherance to the template be for another hole to be called an Alps hole?  

It has to have ALL of the component features of a true "alps"
such as # 17 at Prestwick or # 3 at NGLA.
[/color]

How close do they need to be to be called Alps-like?  

See my answer above
[/color]

Or to have Alps features?

Any hole can have one, or some of the component elements, but, in order to be classified as a true Alps hole, they have to have them all.
[/color]

In calling for the commentators of the time to be more strict, how do you feel about C.B. MacDonald, the godfather of templates in the U.S., calling the third at Merion a Redan?

I don't believe he did any more than I believe that Donald Ross called Seminole "FLAT"
[/color]

For fun, here's a picture of one commentators observation of an "alpinization" of a hole.  Certainly looks Alps-like in a mountain sense.  Doesn't bear much resemblance to either Prestwick or NGLA (in their current configurations).  Perhaps different commentators from MacDonald on down had, and have more liberal standards for use of template names.

There's a big difference between a feature described as "alpinization" as seen in AWT's Shawnee, or AWT's mini-alpinization as seen at Somerset Hills, and an "ALPS" hole.
[/color]




Phil_the_Author

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #351 on: December 06, 2006, 06:02:45 PM »
Pat, are you stating that there is only a single proper form of an "alps" hole? If so I say you are wrong. Wasn't the mounding at Mid-Surrey viewed as a form of "alps" hole?

Tilly must have believed this to be the case as he refered to the "Mid-Surrey scheme of mounding" to prove that he was the first in the U.S. to bring "alpinization" to golf course design, something that you even refer to with your comment, "There's a big difference between a feature described as "alpinization" as seen in AWT's Shawnee, or AWT's mini-alpinization as seen at Somerset Hills, and an "ALPS" hole."



Patrick_Mucci

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #352 on: December 06, 2006, 06:10:58 PM »
Pat
As I spelled out in my previous post M&W advised in four important ways:

1. Wilson spent 2 days at the NGLA with Macdonald presumably going over the course and Macd's versions of famous holes (Wilson is the source)

Again, you use the term "PRESUME"
You don't know what they discussed.  None of us do.
It could have centered on financing, establishing a membership or a variety of topics.
I agree that it wouldn't be imprudent to ASSUME that they might have discussed architecture, design, construction, etc., etc.., But, we have absolutely NO EVIDENCE of any specific discussions on those topics.
[/color]

2. He prepared Wilson for his trip abroad (Wilson)

He might have told him what clothes to pack, where to stay, where to eat, who to meet, where to sight see, where to play, etc. etc..  Again, there's not one IOTA of specifics to confirm the specifics of their conversations.
[/color]


3. He was brought in prior to construction and gave his blessing to the site (American Golf)

What does that mean ?
What if he didn't give his blessing ?
Would they have abandoned the site ?
Stopped the project ?
Looked for new land ?

You continue to accept as The Gospel quotes that may be totally inaccurate.  One only has to review your quote with respect to Donald Ross stating that Seminole is FLAT to know that you can't believe everything you read.

Perhaps that comment was a "fluff" piece, trying to give credibility, or the "Pope's" blessing to the project in an effort to promote it.
[/color]

4. Wilson wrote laying out a golf course proved to be difficult and M&W's expertise was invaluable (Wilson)

Exactly what "expertise" ?
Don't you see that these articles continually use vague, nondescript terms and references, never clearly identifying exactly what was done ?
Is there anywhere where Wilson cites a specific hole,, a specific feature ?
Absent that vital information, everything else is speculation.
[/color]

I'm not sure how you define fluff or taking liberities. If you want to dig further into the history of Merion, Wilson and M&W I would suggest you carry out some independent research on your own.

That's not the issue.
The issue is your taking non-specific, vague references and imputing substance to them where no evidence exists to support your conclusions.

Let's go back to the Ross quote on Seminole being FLAT.
I don't have to do any research, I've played there since 1960 and can tell you Seminole is anything but flat.  It's got some of the steepest, highest hills in South Florida.

Yet, you took this quote at face value, insisting that Ross said that Seminole was FLAT, therefore, it had to be FLAT, which as we all know, isn't true.

While I applaud your research, I don't agree with your conclusions.

You tend to draw a conclusion first and then look for support for your conclusion, rather than do the research and base your conclusion on what you find.

I don't think that you can make these leaps of faith absent more concrete evidence to support your position.
[/color]


Patrick_Mucci

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #353 on: December 06, 2006, 06:16:17 PM »

Pat, are you stating that there is only a single proper form of an "alps" hole?

A single proper form ?

NO, but certainly all of the component elements must be present to create a true Alps hole, in look and playability.
[/color]

so I say you are wrong. Wasn't the mounding at Mid-Surrey viewed as a form of "alps" hole?

A "form" of, and a "true" Alps hole are two different things.
[/color]

Tilly must have believed this to be the case as he refered to the "Mid-Surrey scheme of mounding" to prove that he was the first in the U.S. to bring "alpinization" to golf course design, something that you even refer to with your comment, "There's a big difference between a feature described as "alpinization" as seen in AWT's Shawnee, or AWT's mini-alpinization as seen at Somerset Hills, and an "ALPS" hole."

As I said above, I don't consider the insertion of an "alpinization" feature sufficient to categorize a hole as
a true Alps hole.
[/color]

« Last Edit: December 06, 2006, 06:16:47 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #354 on: December 06, 2006, 06:44:46 PM »

There are several Redans to be found nowadays
on American courses. There is a simplified Redan
at Piping Rock, a reversed Redan at Merion Cricket
Club (the green being approached from the left hand
end of the tableland) and another reversed Redan at
Sleepy Hollow where the tee instead of being about
level with the green is much higher. A beautiful
short hole with the Redan principle will be found on
the new Philadelphia course at Pine Valley. Here
also the tee is higher than the hole, so that the player
overlooks the tableland. The principle can be used with an infinite number of variations on any
course.



Tom P,

Any idea when this article quote by MacDonald is from?

Dave M,

Obviously, this question can be directed to you because I believe I pulled this from your post up above.

Jim,

The quote comes from the July 1914 edition of American Golfer.

The article also states about NGLA (my bolds):

"Curiously enough the Redan existed at the National
long before the links was thought of. It is a perfectly
natural hole. The essential part, the tilted tableland
was almost exactly like the North Berwick
original.
All that had to be done was to dig the
banker in the face, and place the tee properly."

David,

The tilted tableland seems to be an essential part according to this part of the article.

The people most familiar with the ground at Merion say the hole doesn't have (and never had) a tilt in the way MacDonald described it for the standard replica Redan, or more importantly the way it actually is at North Berwick, the mother of all Redans.

Your quote says the "principle" of the Redan could be used with variation.  Do you see where he has defined the "principle"?  Do you think the "essential" tilted tableland is a feature than can be varied?

The NB Redan, as described by others slopes down a line on the long axis of the green.  You can debate all you want about whether that is front to back or right to left.  Depends on the angle you look at the green.  

From the tee NB is blind.



Looking from the the mound that is front right of the green you can see the tilt of the green.  It is as Jim has tried to point out to you.




Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #355 on: December 06, 2006, 07:06:28 PM »

In calling for the commentators of the time to be more strict, how do you feel about C.B. MacDonald, the godfather of templates in the U.S., calling the third at Merion a Redan?

I don't believe he did any more than I believe that Donald Ross called Seminole "FLAT"
[/color]

Then you don't believe that MacDonald wrote the article in the July 1914 edition of American Golfer, where he said just that about the third at Merion.  It does have his byline on it.  Are you suggesting it was ghost written?

Not to get too far off track here, but saying that Seminole has the largest hills in south Florida is not saying much.  How high are they - 10 feet.  Is it not possible that someone like Ross might consider that "flat" relative to most other locales?



TEPaul

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #356 on: December 06, 2006, 07:28:58 PM »
Bryan:

Thanks for that post and photos above.

With any legitimate redan I've ever seen or played, whether right to left of reverse the green basically slopes down and away somewhere and somehow from the incoming shot. That is just not the case at all with Merion's #3. I have never seen a redan that doesn't slope down and away somehow at least a little bit.

In my opinion, the original, North Berwick's 15th is different from every other redan in the world I've seen because of it's basic blindness along at least the right half of it but at least it does slope somewhat down and away from right to left.

I was telling Wayne tonight I played North Berwick's redan only one time. It was in high wind and I said to the guy I was playing with; "Watch this, I'm going to aim about 75 yards right of where it looks like I should and power hook a ball onto and down that right to left orientation" To my horror the ball didn't hook at all, it went straight out but very solid in a direction that looked like I might hit something off the course. When I got up there my ball was about two feet from the far left pin. I don't know how that happened because I couldn't see it but that hole is something else. It's obviously a ton of fun and challenge. But it's very little like any redan I've seen in the States although at least is does slope down and away right to left--no doubt about that.

T_MacWood

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #357 on: December 06, 2006, 07:41:13 PM »
Ok...so what have we learned here after three zillion pages?  ;)

We know that Wilson visited Macdonald prior to visiting GB (already known)

We know that Wilson was very grateful for Macdonald's tutelage and counsel, as well as telling him what courses he should see during his eight month trip  (already known)

We know that Wilson did in fact go to spend a full EIGHT MONTHS visiting GB and according to accounts, sketched all sort of features of great holes and holes he admired, which sadly have never been found (already known)

We know that CB stopped by the Merion property.  (already known) More than once.

We know that despite scores of articles written about the original Merion courses, and how well received they were by their contemporaries, there is not a single sentence anywhere that even implies Macdonald had a hand in designing any hole there (already known)

Thats true. We also know there is also not a single sentence that implies any single person had a hand in designing any hole of the East....including Wilson.

We know that no one on the committee had ever designed and built a golf course before.

We know that Merion-East was the only course Wilson was involved with that attempted to include famous features.

We know that Merion-East was the only course in which Wilson collaborated with Macdonald/Whigham.

We know Wilson and Flynn later removed (or remodeled) all the famous features at Merion-East.

We know Whigham claimed Macdonald was involved in the design of Merion.


We know that two of the holes on the east course, of 36 holes built during a two year stretch by Wilson, were named by some important golf folks of the time, including Macdonald, as famed template holes.   We also have determined that it unlikely either was anything near to the type of near replicas Macdonald built at NGLA for those two hole concepts.  In addition, it appears a single green (the 15th) may have been modeled after the "Eden", but even that seems a stretch because it's not a par three hole, the approach shot is significantly uphill, and the bunkering in front is hardly a "pot" type bunker.  

At the time Merion-East was designed and built how many template holes existed in America beyond NGLA?

We also know that two greens have "valley of sin" features which exist today.   Interestingly, there are no Macdonald "valley of sin" features anywhere that I'm aware of.

Finally, there was a principals' nose bunker feature on what is the 4th hole today.   There were also some dolomite type things off to the side of the 9th, and some other unnatural landscape features mentioned that seemed to be quickly removed in the early years.  

There are 36 holes at Merion.  

Does anyone really see some type of linkage between Merion and copying great holes from overseas, except in some very scant instances?

Absolutely I do, other than the NGLA what other course in America had more features borrowed directly from overseas?

Or, more importantly, did what Wilson learn in GB is that every course and piece of land is unique, and instead of copying "features", it was more important to apply broad strategic concepts while building unique holes on each unique property?

I don't think he had to go overseas to learn that lesson. He could have learned that lesson at the NGLA.

Personally, I think that was a HUGE architectural leap in understanding for US architecture.   It wasn't really feasible to just "copy" great holes that occurred overseas (mostly on linksland) ad nauseam, on each course, but instead get to the fundamental understanding of what made those holes work in terms of strategic interest and concepts, and then apply them in a wholly individual fashion on these shores.

The NGLA was not a great course because it copied holes from overseas. The NGLA was great because CBM recongized great design ideas from overseas and adapted them to what Mother Nature provided. Macdonald was more about adopting interesting strategic ideas and adapting them to the land...some times the result was something close to the original, some times the result was something completely different, some times the result was something better than the original.

That's what makes Merion so special, and so distinctive, and so historically important.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2006, 08:09:14 PM by Tom MacWood »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #358 on: December 06, 2006, 09:08:39 PM »
Tom M

Maybe the answer is embedded in here somewhere but I've kept pretty good tabs on this thread...kind of like the 8 car pile up across the median in the oncoming lanes...can't look away...do you have any evidence (other than what you think you see in photos) that Hugh Wilson (and whomever else might have had a hand in laying out Merion) actually intentionally implemented these template ideas you so strongly assert are/were there?


It seems logically possible to me that CBM would have strongly recommended specific holes for Wilson to study while abroad. This should have made an impression on Wilson and these hole concepts may well have struck a cord with Wilson. Just show me Wilson writing about a Redan, an Alps or whatever these other templates are.  

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #359 on: December 06, 2006, 09:20:22 PM »

In calling for the commentators of the time to be more strict, how do you feel about C.B. MacDonald, the godfather of templates in the U.S., calling the third at Merion a Redan?

I don't believe he did any more than I believe that Donald Ross called Seminole "FLAT"
[/color]

Then you don't believe that MacDonald wrote the article in the July 1914 edition of American Golfer, where he said just that about the third at Merion.  It does have his byline on it.  Are you suggesting it was ghost written?

There could be a variety of explanations.

First, I doubt that CBM would give credit to a poor imitation.
Secondly, the article could have been written based on a conversation, or editorial license could be the culprit.


Not to get too far off track here, but saying that Seminole has the largest hills in south Florida is not saying much.  

Then, you're not familiar with Southern Florida.
Stand on the 9th green or 10th tee at Jupiter Hills and tell me that.
[/color]

How high are they - 10 feet.  Is it not possible that someone like Ross might consider that "flat" relative to most other locales?[/color]


NO, it's not possible.
The hills are sharp and high, rising 30, 40 or perhaps 50 feet or more, abruptly.
[/color]


Kyle Harris

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #360 on: December 06, 2006, 09:24:02 PM »

There are several Redans to be found nowadays
on American courses. There is a simplified Redan
at Piping Rock, a reversed Redan at Merion Cricket
Club (the green being approached from the left hand
end of the tableland) and another reversed Redan at
Sleepy Hollow where the tee instead of being about
level with the green is much higher. A beautiful
short hole with the Redan principle will be found on
the new Philadelphia course at Pine Valley. Here
also the tee is higher than the hole, so that the player
overlooks the tableland. The principle can be used with an infinite number of variations on any
course.



Tom P,

Any idea when this article quote by MacDonald is from?

Dave M,

Obviously, this question can be directed to you because I believe I pulled this from your post up above.

Jim,

The quote comes from the July 1914 edition of American Golfer.

The article also states about NGLA (my bolds):

"Curiously enough the Redan existed at the National
long before the links was thought of. It is a perfectly
natural hole. The essential part, the tilted tableland
was almost exactly like the North Berwick
original.
All that had to be done was to dig the
banker in the face, and place the tee properly."

David,

The tilted tableland seems to be an essential part according to this part of the article.

The people most familiar with the ground at Merion say the hole doesn't have (and never had) a tilt in the way MacDonald described it for the standard replica Redan, or more importantly the way it actually is at North Berwick, the mother of all Redans.

Your quote says the "principle" of the Redan could be used with variation.  Do you see where he has defined the "principle"?  Do you think the "essential" tilted tableland is a feature than can be varied?

The NB Redan, as described by others slopes down a line on the long axis of the green.  You can debate all you want about whether that is front to back or right to left.  Depends on the angle you look at the green.  

From the tee NB is blind.



Looking from the the mound that is front right of the green you can see the tilt of the green.  It is as Jim has tried to point out to you.





WOW, you mean to say that Fairy Ring has gone unchecked for what looks like weeks and the course has remained playable?

Those brits, must be practicing some form of voodoo!

T_MacWood

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #361 on: December 06, 2006, 09:28:13 PM »
Tom M

Maybe the answer is embedded in here somewhere but I've kept pretty good tabs on this thread...kind of like the 8 car pile up across the median in the oncoming lanes...can't look away...do you have any evidence (other than what you think you see in photos) that Hugh Wilson (and whomever else might have had a hand in laying out Merion) actually intentionally implemented these template ideas you so strongly assert are/were there?

There is no evidence that Hugh Wilson designed any of the original holes at Merion, much less the template holes that were asserted by comtemporary reports a part of the early course.


It seems logically possible to me that CBM would have strongly recommended specific holes for Wilson to study while abroad. This should have made an impression on Wilson and these hole concepts may well have struck a cord with Wilson. Just show me Wilson writing about a Redan, an Alps or whatever these other templates are.  

To my knowledge Wilson never wrote about the Redan, Alps, etc. If you are interested in reading about those holes I'd recommend the writing of Macdonald and Whigham.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2006, 09:29:12 PM by Tom MacWood »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #362 on: December 06, 2006, 09:48:10 PM »
There is no evidence that Hugh Wilson designed any of the original holes at Merion, much less the template holes that were asserted by comtemporary reports a part of the early course.

Is this accurate?

Would the club agree with you on this?

T_MacWood

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #363 on: December 06, 2006, 11:02:38 PM »
JES
What holes did Wilson design on the original Merion-East?

DMoriarty

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #364 on: December 07, 2006, 12:07:07 AM »
Re: my agronomy assertion. I was referring to green speed because the best redan I have played (#7 at Shinnecock) typically repels my shots because of the speed of the greens. Most of my shots (my good shots) filter off the left or back left of the green. The speed in those days would have limited this. True, todays trajectories are much higher so that might account for balls bouncing over easier then.

I understood that you were talking about green speed, but thanks for the clarification.  Again, I dont think it would make much of a difference.   If it did, then NGLA's Redan would have been much less interesting than MacDonald describes.

Certainly, the slower green speeds would impact how far the ball rolls once it quits bouncing and settles onto the green.  But my understanding is that conditions were much firmer back then, through the green.   Firmer ground leads to bigger bounces; and firmer ground which falls away leads to much bigger bounces.  Combine this with the equipment they used in those days (not only a somewhat lower trajectories, but also less backspin) and I cant imagine the slower greenspeed making much of a difference.  

I guess it is possible that the harder ground actually allowed the lefty (or a righty on a reverse) to hit a fade and still get the ball to take the slope, or even for the grass to slow down a ball so much that a lefty could hold a draw into NGLA's redan.   But if this is true, it would strip the hole of much of its interest.   Plus, it sure doesnt sound like the green speed made much of a difference in MacDonald's description of how NGLA's redan played.  

David,

With all due respect, that's the type of response that makes one think you've got an agenda as opposed to an open mind in this conversation. The instructions (from CBM, not me) are to tilt the land and then approach it from the angle. Regardless, it never tilts towards the tee as #3 at Merion does. At best it slopes straight right to left.

So far as I know, I have no agenda, but am rather trying to understand these terms in in the context of how they were used at the time.  

With all due respect, I think your interpretation of MacDonald's quote is quite stretched.  The quote is the first sentence in his GI article on the Redan.  MacDonald was not providing "instructions" as to how to build a Redan, but was rather simply describing a Redan.  Moreover, while your exercise was fun and has a certain logic to it, its validity depends upon the assumption that the order in which MacDonald listed the features has special significance, and I dont think the order had any special significance.

As far as your implication that this is evidence of some secret agenda on my part, I am not sure how you get that from what I posted.  If a tableland naturally slopes slightly up and tilts one way or another, then approaching it from an angle doesnt create a downslope, but rather a sideslope.   That was the point of my response.  

As far as the hole at Merion goes, I could be wrong, but my recollection was that the green does slope from left to right, toward the bunker.  I don't think that it falls away and I havent seen any compelling evidence that it used to fall away.  But MacDonald considered it a Redan anyway.  

MacDonald's usage of the word 'Redan'  is entirely consistent with my intepretation of the quote.  But don't worry, I won't infer bad faith on your part for construing the quote in a manner which MacDonald contradicts in the very same article.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2006, 12:32:20 AM by DMoriarty »

DMoriarty

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #365 on: December 07, 2006, 01:31:37 AM »
JES,

It is from an article entitled "Redan Hole at the National Golf Links" in the July 1914 edition of Golf Illustrated, and was one of four MacDonald articles that Golf Illustrated published in May - August of that year.  All focused on a different hole at NGLA (Sahara, Alps, Redan, Cape.)  He does heap the praise on his own holes, but there is absolutely no discussion of these being "templates" to be copied exactly.  To the contrary, the articles focused on principles, concepts, strategies, and options.  An example from the Sahara article:

The principle
of the hole is to give the
player on the tee a great
number of alternatives according
to his strength and
courage. If he plays for
the green and succeeds he
has an advantage of at least
one stroke over the opponent
who takes a shorter carry to the right, and
probably more than one stroke over the player who
avoids the carry altogether. But if he fails he is
bunkered and may easily take a five or six and lose
to the short player who goes round.


The introduction to the series preceded the first such article ("Sahara Hole at the National Golf Links") and sets forth MacDonald's stated purpose in writing the articles.  Some would say he built NGLA for the same reasons he wrote the articles:

This is the first in a series of representative American golf holes to be a monthly
feature of the magazine. Each will be illustrated with a full-page plaster of Paris model
worked out from an especially prepared topographical map. This allows a visualization
of the character and interesting difficulties of each hole not possible if only
a survey chart were given. To this the photographic illustrations will be a further
aid, as the position and direction of the camera will be found indicated upon the
model. It is hoped that as time goes on these examples of the great holes of
American golf courses will furnish to Green Committees the country over a fund of
knowledge from which they may gather much that will be helpful to the improvement
and added interest of their courses.

--My bold added.  

Here are a few photos for those who think that MacDonald's style was geometric and manufactured . . .












DMoriarty

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #366 on: December 07, 2006, 01:46:57 AM »
Jim S,

The fact that Professor Moriarty could not understand the implications of your question is of no surprise.  For him to say, after you've explained the thrust of the point, that the old agronomy wouldn't make a difference is consistant with his inability to understand anything related to this subject.  


Professor Moriarty says,

"Merion's "non-redan" played more like a redan for me than NGLA's real redan, because I am left-handed."  

This is all we need to know about his ability to tackle this subject matter.  About as poorly as the Eagles' defense.

. . . I hope the community at large makes their determinations on their own and do not follow MacWood and Moriarty on faith.  That would be a mistake, but one everybody is free to make.

Mr. Morrison.  I understood exactly what JES meant, and if you weren't so gung ho on trying to find something about me to ridicule, you'd would understand my response as well as my comment you quote above.

So far with me you have been defamatory, rude, and wrong.  And now with this inconsequential drivel you are well on your way to pathetic.  

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #367 on: December 07, 2006, 04:05:05 AM »

In calling for the commentators of the time to be more strict, how do you feel about C.B. MacDonald, the godfather of templates in the U.S., calling the third at Merion a Redan?

I don't believe he did any more than I believe that Donald Ross called Seminole "FLAT"
[/color]

Then you don't believe that MacDonald wrote the article in the July 1914 edition of American Golfer, where he said just that about the third at Merion.  It does have his byline on it.  Are you suggesting it was ghost written?

There could be a variety of explanations.

First, I doubt that CBM would give credit to a poor imitation.
 But he did.  Read the July 1914 GI.  He credited Merion as a Redan.

Secondly, the article could have been written based on a conversation, or editorial license could be the culprit.
[/color]Or, he could have written the words himself, and they were unedited.  Why can't you accept the obvious answer?  It has his byline on it.  Are all his other writings to be discredited too?  Or is this the only one?

Not to get too far off track here, but saying that Seminole has the largest hills in south Florida is not saying much.  

Then, you're not familiar with Southern Florida.
Stand on the 9th green or 10th tee at Jupiter Hills and tell me that.
[/color]  I am familiar with South Florida - more the Gulf coast, though, where there are no 25 or 50 foot "hills".

How high are they - 10 feet.  Is it not possible that someone like Ross might consider that "flat" relative to most other locales?

NO, it's not possible.
The hills are sharp and high, rising 30, 40 or perhaps 50 feet or more, abruptly.
[/color]  Point partially conceded to Mr Mucci.  Using the USGS application I see that the dune line along the ocean and along Ocean Dr appear to rise to 25 feet or so above sea level, and abruptly so.  Where do you think it's 50 feet?  Perhaps Ross thought that overall the property was still relatively flat.  It certainly is not hilly compared to  many locations in the northeast.

« Last Edit: December 07, 2006, 04:12:06 AM by Bryan Izatt »

JESII

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Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #368 on: December 07, 2006, 06:58:49 AM »
JES
What holes did Wilson design on the original Merion-East?

I don't know that he did any. Whom would you assign credit to if it had to be one architect? How about if you could list two? Or three? Care to lay out your case?

T_MacWood

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #369 on: December 07, 2006, 07:02:29 AM »
Based on the reports at the time the course was designed by the committee (five gentlemen) headed by Wilson advised by Macdonald & Whigham. Beyond that we have no idea who did what.

JESII

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Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #370 on: December 07, 2006, 07:16:50 AM »
David,

A couple points in response to your reply #509:

1) Are you of the opinion that todays golf balls spin more than those of 90 years ago?

2) When discussing the orientation of The Redan as CBM describes, you state....."its validity depends upon the assumption that the order in which MacDonald listed the features has special significance, and I dont think the order had any special significance".[/i] To change the sequence would be to change the sequence of how the hole is actually developed. In other words, turning the axis for the approach direction and then tilting the green equates to building the tee and then building the green. Do you think CBM established his tee complexes for his one-shotters and then tried to find somewhere to put a green? Or do you think maybe he found a green complex and then found the best way to approach it? In my exercise, when you tilt the book left and then turn it you are essentially building (or finding if you prefer) the green and then turning the book clockwise to establish the approach direction (or tee position if you prefer). The sequencing is of utmost importance.

3) Care to post the entire REDAN article by CBM? I would not know where to find it so it would be much appreciated.

4) When I say responses like yours give the appearance of an agenda it's because you did not answer the question. I now understand where you were coming from, and I hope my response 2) above helps.

5) A couple of weeks ago Pat M and Mike C battled about where to draw the line when pooling different holes in a certain "template" category. Frankly I could care less what a hole is called. For me it comes down to playability. I would call the bunker on the front right of Merion's #3 a Redan bunker. Unfortunately, that is the only characteristic of the hole that is similar to the rest of the Redan concepts I know of. The green sloping away from the tee at an angle is, to me, the most important of these playability concepts. That feature dictates the types of shots that might be successful and clearly illustrates the demand on those shots. A green sloping towards the tee does not have similar demands.

JESII

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Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #371 on: December 07, 2006, 07:22:02 AM »
Based on the reports at the time the course was designed by the committee (five gentlemen) headed by Wilson advised by Macdonald & Whigham. Beyond that we have no idea who did what.

So what exactly is your position here?

None of this sounds odd to me, and I don't think condradictory to what Wayne and Tom have said. How much credit can be given to CBM when all that is documented (correct me if I'm wrong) is a two day visit by Wilson prior to leaving for his time in Europe? What good would it be to speculate, or worse, over speculate his contributions. Are you suggesting Wilson to be so vain as to not give credit where it's due?

T_MacWood

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #372 on: December 07, 2006, 07:51:20 AM »
It seems to me there has been attempt to downplay the evidence that points to a stronger influence on the part of Macdonald & Whigham. The Alps was not really an Alps. The Redan was not really a Redan. We are not going recognize or acknowledge the Principles Nose. So on.

When M&W's name is brought up as being an influence...you'll get: what evidence to you have that he designed any hole at Merion-East. The anwser is there is no evidence other than the existance of some of his pet features and his involvement as an advisor. Of course that same question could just as easily be asked of Wilson, what evidence do you have that Wilson designed any of the holes on the early course and the answer would be the same, no evidence.

In many ways the West course was the more revolutionary golf course. It was designed by Wilson. It seems to me it was the first course made in the Wilson/Flynn image (in contrast to the East) and became the model for the redesigned East.

When we sweep under the rug the true nature of the early East and the influence of M&W - in contrast to the West - I think we are missing a big part of the story.

JESII

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Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #373 on: December 07, 2006, 08:04:10 AM »
To make the statement that "we sweep under the rug the true nature of the early East and the influence of M&W", you need evidence that this has happened. A poorly conceived Redan is hardly evidence.

I wonder if it's possible that CBM made very strong suggestions to Wilson prior to his trip on which holes to study. These holes are probably great in their original form but once on the ground in the inland USA the committee decided to pursue another direction with respect to CBM's recomendations.

If that is the case, The Merion committee could very easily have felt they wasted a good deal of time, energy and resources all thanks to following the recommendations of one CBM.

Just a thought.

T_MacWood

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #374 on: December 07, 2006, 09:42:44 AM »
To make the statement that "we sweep under the rug the true nature of the early East and the influence of M&W", you need evidence that this has happened.

Have you been following this thread?   ???
« Last Edit: December 07, 2006, 09:49:58 AM by Tom MacWood »

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