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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Architects and projects that can't work.....
« on: November 19, 2006, 10:11:39 PM »
We have been involved with a small town country club for a couple of years that wishes to redo the course.  We had a masterplan that would allow the club to redo and operate within their annual budget.  
however, a couple of members have decided it needs a much more expensive redo at a cost of several million more and an annual maitenance budget of around $600,000.  
Fact is ...dues are $75 permonth and around 150 members.....to do such a project would be an injustice to the club.....we have declined.....someone will do it...
how many times does this happen across the country???  Is it wrong to burden a club with such?
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects and projects that can't work.....
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2006, 10:43:31 PM »
Mike,

There is an old maxim in club fitting circles.  It is the long lasting tale of the famed intelligence test.  Each player is given sound recommendations for their new clubs based on actual data that they can see and hold in their hand: impact tape markings, lie board indicators, swing speed monitors, the works.  You can even get the to hit a series of repeatable and consistent shots with a fitted 6 iron in a regular shaft that is two degrees flat and has a full cast cavity back.  Eighty percent will stop there and be happy with their new found game and live happily ever after.  The other twenty percent think you have somehow found their swing for them and want to try out the forged no bounce no offset blades. They chunk and flare shot after shot after shot only to respond, “Boy, I had it going just a second ago, I must be tired now.”  Get me a set of those forged babies and put some S300s in ‘em, I’m gonna get in shape and I’ll be swinging harder.”  The fitter reminds them of how well they hit the ultra forgiving club. Again they respond, “But I was hittin’ the ball pure.  You’re a great teacher!  Get me the blades.”  Again the fitter shows them the impact tape markings, the lie results, and points out the cluster of ball on the range, as well as reminding them of their 23 handicap.  The player responds, “You’re right, I should get ‘em two up so I can hit a little more of a draw.”  Good idea.  At this point, the player has failed the intelligence test.  The player gets the blades with stiff shafts, that are two up, and wonders why he is now playing a trap swing and every miss is a low duck hook while the good passes are dead push blocks.  

Two months later he’s back in the shop, asks for another fitting session, with great hope the pro schedule the appointment for Tuesday at the range, 8:00AM in hopes of getting the player into the right irons.  Tuesday comes and the fitting cart is wheeled back out to the practice tee.  The player shows up, looks at the pro and says, “What’s with the iron cart.  I need a new driver and three wood.  I think this swinging smooth with my woods and hard with my irons in screwin’ up my timing. Got anything in an X with about 8 degrees of loft?”

The moral of the story is you can’t help stupid!  You can try to inform and teach ignorant, but stupid is stupid.  Given that most boards are made up of 12 or more members, that give you 2.4 stupids and if there are three, the board will never pass the intelligence test.  Take their money, they want you to have it.  It will make them happy!


Cheers!

JT
Jim Thompson

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects and projects that can't work.....
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2006, 12:22:06 AM »
I was reading a magazine once while waiting for a haircut.  It had an article about a successful concierge.  His secret?

He never said yes, and never said no.  One customer wanted a rental helicopter to beat traffic.  He called him back in the room to say it could be arranged for $35,000 and should he proceed with the reservations.  Naturally, the guest declined, but was allowed to do it on his terms.

I think a successful gca follows a similar path.  Your job is information, options and recommendations, but the choice is always theirs. If you have laid out some options, the ramifications now and in the future as you best see them and they choose, they choose.  You only suspect they won't do well, you don't really know.  

I have been in similar situations and some sugar daddy came round to bail out the overspending.  Or, the local banker is a club member and works out longer debt payments, etc.  Its not just country country clubs who overspend what conservative people feel is wise - our govt. and corporations do the same.

However, if you feel strongly enough then I guess you should quit the project, although you are rightfully asking yourself why, knowing they will get someone else to do it if you don't.

If you stayed on the job, with your feelings, you could probably look out for them as well as anyone, using all your skill to provide the lowest cost reasonable solution, could you not?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects and projects that can't work.....
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2006, 07:34:43 AM »
Jeff/Jim,
I am not trying to sound like a saint but this is a walk away....
They have $25,000 supt.  5 gang fairway unit, one riding greensmower...all about 10 years old.
When I was hired to do a masterplan, the supt had already gotten an irrigation system lad out by a distributor that was wall to wall at around 1.1 mill.....they wanted a practice area.....no water source for the new amount of water and no budget or source for buying mowers to mow all of the grass that would be growing because of the "new" water and no budget to pay the new electric bills for the pump....
We convinced them to put in an irrigation system that would mainly be double row in landing areas and single every were else. At under $500,000 They did.  Someone had given them the capital for these items.  
Now $75 per month times 150 is $11,250 and guest fees are $15.00 and everyone owns their cart.  
Because the supt could not grow in the practice area an older gentleman decided it needed to be more like an "Atlanta course" and he would get the money if they could take care of it.....
This is a town of 3000 with 4 courses within 20 miles and one of those is owned by the state as a convention center.
Less than 100 acres...want 7000 yards....
would be doing no one a favor by doing this and it would probably come back on me.....

My suggestion to them was hire the best supt you can afford with the money the man was giving and buy some maintenance equipment. The present supt is so tickled to be getting the new place that he tells them he can do it with what he has.....he says the walkie talkie with the irrigation system(they are tearing out our new one) will save him enough labor to make up for most of the increase....

I just thought it a good example of how courses need to fit the economics and geography of the area if they are to survive.

Mike

« Last Edit: November 20, 2006, 07:36:56 AM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects and projects that can't work.....
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2006, 08:27:37 AM »
Mike,
Isn't your example here no different than the club that "can afford it" that has a few members that think they should do nothing!  I see this as once again "education" and finding ways to get the right people to understand what is best for that particular golf course.  

Your suggestion in this case may be correct, but now you have to figure out how to get them to buy into to doing the right thing.
Mark

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Architects and projects that can't work.....
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2006, 08:33:00 AM »
Mike:

How does the decision making process at that club work (besides being driven by egos)?  Can a handful of members decide how to spend everyone else's money?

Keep me posted on this one.  I can't wait to find out who is the architect who takes this job.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects and projects that can't work.....
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2006, 08:54:16 AM »
Jeff/Jim,
I am not trying to sound like a saint but this is a walk away....
They have $25,000 supt.  5 gang fairway unit, one riding greensmower...all about 10 years old.


Mike, sounds like you would need to be a saint to make this work.. clear walk away in my opinion.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects and projects that can't work.....
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2006, 12:04:18 PM »
Mike, if you did take Jim's advice and give them what they want and state they will pay you... what is the likelihood that you will never get paid anyway, because they go under, or get litigeous when they realise they overspent and can't afford it, and blame you for overselling them?  
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects and projects that can't work.....
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2006, 12:18:07 PM »
There have been clubs with a few super wealthy members that have either kept the club going during hard times or have contributed over and above the assessment for improvements. This club seems like it doesn't have the financial ability to do too much, if anything. Don't they realize that?

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects and projects that can't work.....
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2006, 12:34:45 PM »
Jeff/Jim,
I am not trying to sound like a saint but this is a walk away....
They have $25,000 supt.  5 gang fairway unit, one riding greensmower...all about 10 years old.
When I was hired to do a masterplan, the supt had already gotten an irrigation system lad out by a distributor that was wall to wall at around 1.1 mill.....they wanted a practice area.....no water source for the new amount of water and no budget or source for buying mowers to mow all of the grass that would be growing because of the "new" water and no budget to pay the new electric bills for the pump....
We convinced them to put in an irrigation system that would mainly be double row in landing areas and single every were else. At under $500,000 They did.  Someone had given them the capital for these items.  
Now $75 per month times 150 is $11,250 and guest fees are $15.00 and everyone owns their cart.  
Because the supt could not grow in the practice area an older gentleman decided it needed to be more like an "Atlanta course" and he would get the money if they could take care of it.....
This is a town of 3000 with 4 courses within 20 miles and one of those is owned by the state as a convention center.
Less than 100 acres...want 7000 yards....
would be doing no one a favor by doing this and it would probably come back on me.....

My suggestion to them was hire the best supt you can afford with the money the man was giving and buy some maintenance equipment. The present supt is so tickled to be getting the new place that he tells them he can do it with what he has.....he says the walkie talkie with the irrigation system(they are tearing out our new one) will save him enough labor to make up for most of the increase....

I just thought it a good example of how courses need to fit the economics and geography of the area if they are to survive.

Mike



Mike,

If you don't walk away you will have a failed golf club that will blame you for their demise.  Don't walk...RUN.

Actually in looking at some of the numbers you gave, this place is already a failure--who is keeping the doors open?

If annual dues only generate $135,000 per YEAR ($75 x 150 x 12) and assuming AT BEST they have 1/2 their rounds as guest rounds 15,000 rounds (wildly optomistic) at $15 is $225,000

What other revenue?  Right now you have revenue of $360,000 and you said they spend $600k a year on maintennce??


Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects and projects that can't work.....
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2006, 12:36:37 PM »
Mike,

Whoops.

It seems that they WANT to spend $600k.  Sorry about that.  Still, what do they spend now?  I still don't see how this even begins to make sense.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects and projects that can't work.....
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2006, 12:38:13 PM »
Chris, I understand Mike to be saying that the overly agressive remodelled course he would estimate to be maintained at 600K.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects and projects that can't work.....
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2006, 12:40:41 PM »
Oops, I see we crossed posts...

But, another thing is that this could be one of those low brow clubs that do a bigger F&B and banquet biz than the golf function, which is only ancillary to the overall operation.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects and projects that can't work.....
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2006, 02:04:56 PM »
Guys,
This is a small farm town that keeps losing poulation.  It is the old club in town and as Chris C says it can't make it as it is......
However one elderly member that has had national status can about $4 mill that would be a grant/gift etc.....All of that is fine.....
Problem is they could not pay to maintain it.....and they do not understand or let me say...they don't want to accept that.....the pipedream says fees will go up and many others will come to play.....
As Mark says...try to educate.....it is no different than the guy that is given a Bentley but can't pay the insurance or maintenace.....except there will not be a buyer for this place as there would be the Bentley....
Tom D,
I will IM you with the latest .......
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects and projects that can't work.....
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2006, 03:58:52 PM »
condos--that'll bring the small town farmer back ;D

Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects and projects that can't work.....
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2006, 04:00:36 PM »
condos--that'll bring the small town farmer back ;D

Don't even get me started...
Jim Thompson

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