[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

one of the most strategic par 4's in all of golf ?

The interrelatonship of the drive, approach, recovery and putts is unique, like the clues to a mystery, new shots unfold with each discovered/executed shot, yet, solving the mystery requires the solving of all the clues, not just one or two.

Can someone post an aerial of the hole ?

[Jordan Wall]

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I agree. That hole is about the epitome of subtle super effective golf architecture. There's nothing about it that's overdone and there's nothing on it that's underdone.

This week you say you had a north wind. That makes the course play as tough as it can, in my opinion, but not the 6th. The 6th is designed to be most challenging in the So. Florida prevailing wind.

[Jason Mandel]

Pat:

I agree.

A watershed moment on GCA, Pat Mucci and Tom Paul agree on something...  

Jason

[Jfaspen]

Pat:

I agree.

A watershed moment on GCA, Pat Mucci and Tom Paul agree on something...  

Jason

Alas, this is Pat Jr.

[Mark_Fine]

I am willing to bet that all "six" of us on this site who have played it will agree  
Or is the number five  

[John Kirk]

Alas, this is Pat Jr.

Gee, I just assumed Pat and Pat Jr. were the same guy, posting under a different account for some reason.  Hello Pat Jr.  I met and played golf with your dad this September.  He can sure play.  I played him even and he beat me 4 and 1.  He's very confident, isn't he?

[Geoffrey Childs]

I agree.  Its as good a mid-length (is it still mid?) hole strategically as any.  That's a great photo that I think allows visualization of the preferred left side of the fairway challenging the fairway bunkers.  I think the angling of the green front left to back right along with the bunkers creates a shallow target from the right.  That could be problematic downwind in firm conditions.

Which direction is north on this hole?

[TEPaul]

"A watershed moment on GCA, Pat Mucci and Tom Paul agree on something..."

Damnit---I thought I put that message on the IM, definitely not the discussion group.  

[Ian Andrew]

Please tell me why you have to hug the left side off the tee, when the land allows you to hit the shot with the slope and run a natural cut into the green.

On second thought at that length why do you need placement considering the iron you hit in.

While there are a lot of palms in the photo, I'm quite sure I had an excellent and clear angle in from the centre of the 4th tee (don't ask, easy four though).

I still like the 4th a lot more than the 6th because of the options to approach the green, and the slight rise in front that makes the decision more important (fly or bounce).

[Kye Goalby]

Ian,

Have you ever approached this green from the right edge of the fairway / rough?  Unfortunately I have after a crappy three wood  tee shot.   The approach is basically blind ( putting surface), deceptive and difficult. If I remember I hit what I thought was a good 8 or 9 iron  in and ended up over in the bunker left of the green.  One reason to place your tee hot on the left is  you really don't want to go in that bunker (or the one on the right either, which I visited next after rolling my bunker shot across the green)  My hockey stick (nice euphemism, eh) on the card will have me going left off the tee if I get to play again.

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick, here's the aerial.



I haven't played it.  So, could you expand on the interrelationships, mysteries, and the clues.  Why are they unique?  Would they still be mysteries with repeated play?

[ForkaB]

Pat

Is the green elevated and firm?  Can you run the ball up the left channel to the green with a well planned and executed cut?  If so, it is a very interesting abstract interpretation of the 14th at Dornoch, which Ross knew well.

Rich

[wsmorrison]

Is the bunkering similar to construction era?  I wouldn't think so by the looks of it.  An aerial view of the entire course (and I know I can view things too much in 2D rather than 3D, shows a systematic use of similarly sized capes and bays...almost a squat comb look along with a small crescent look to many other bunkers.  What gives?  It looks like there must have been some sandy waste areas early on, but come on, that bunkering is pretty mundane looking in 2D.  There's an awful lot of it too.  Is the bunkering well integrated with the surrounds?  I'm sure it is expertly placed.  But I'd like to hear from Tom Paul and others that have played the course for many years to hear if the bunker look has changed over the years as I suspect and how it compares to the older look.

I know the edges of the bunkers tend to be cut into formalized margins.  It happened at Indian Creek as well. I think it is related to the types of grasses used and their vigorous growth and creep.  So it isn't the grasses I am talking about but the outlines of the bunkering.  It seems awfully repetitive and of a kind a bit out of place in seaside Florida.

Forgive me in advance as I've never been to Seminole.  I know when I knock some highly regarded courses people must think I'm taking a shot at the top tier.  But honestly, in my mind these are not bullet proof in presentation.  Do they look systematic on the ground?

[Dan Boerger]

Jordan's photo does a good job of showing the subtle elevation as you approach the green. I've played this hole from a right fairway tee shot and the approach was very intimidating. I ended up short right and in the bunker. To me, the course gets really intereting on the back nine.

[TEPaul]

I think one reason those who've never seen this hole may not get the right impression of it is the elevations are hard to see on these photos. Height (the vertical dimension) is virtually impossible to pick up on photos like these. The fairway falls left to right and  the green is enough above you if you play safe and right off the tee but the diagonal of that green gets complicated from down to the right. The interesting thing about this green is it's not all that hard from anywhere on the fairway to play just short of or even to the very front of this green. What gets complicated about this approach is to try to get deeper into the green like a third of the way and beyond. That's when you have to really deal with the double diagonal of the bunkering on either side and things get shallow pretty fast. Basically all the diagonals on this hole all the way through are just brilliant. They're subtle but really effective in play, particularly with the prevailing wind.

It's no wonder Hogan loved this hole. If you could send a real fade in there like he could you just minimize that shallowness created by the diagonals so much.

[Ian Andrew]

Kye,

Point taken.

That's always been the problem with only playing a course once. I only had a wedge in and it took away all fear of the shot. I did not get the sense of the hole that you obviously did. It makes we want to go back and look at it again.

[Jim Franklin]

If I am not mistaken, doesn't none other than Ben Hogan think this is one of the best par 4s anywhere?

[Geoffrey Childs]

I think one reason those who've never seen this hole may not get the right impression of it is the elevations are hard to see on these photos. Height (the vertical dimension) is virtually impossible to pick up on photos like these. The fairway falls left to right and  the green is enough above you if you play safe and right off the tee but the diagonal of that green gets complicated from down to the right.

TEP

Wasn't Pat told that Seminole is flat?  

[BCrosby]

The key to the hole is the combination of the fw slope (left to right) and the diagonal of the green. It is clear from the tee that you want to keep it on the left side of the fw but that's hard to do without drawing the ball into the slope and bringing into play the left side fw bunkers. Which are death.

A wonderfully, classically strategic hole.

Bob

P.S. I thought the 4th was a stronger hole. The 3rd is awfully good too.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Please tell me why you have to hug the left side off the tee, when the land allows you to hit the shot with the slope and run a natural cut into the green.

With a fairway and green that cants from high left to low right, you're going to hit a natural cut into a left to right head wind and stop it before it runs into the right greenside bunkers ?

That's an impressive shot.
I don't know of anyone who can hit it.

What if it stays short of the green.

The location of the hole can add a shot to par

If the wind's out of the north, that shot may be even more difficult.

On second thought at that length why do you need placement considering the iron you hit in.

Yes

While there are a lot of palms in the photo, I'm quite sure I had an excellent and clear angle in from the centre of the 4th tee (don't ask, easy four though).

That's about a 300 yard carry on the drive, uphill, into a prevailing wind.  What tees did you play ?  Was the wind in your face or quartering in your face from the left, which is the prevailing wind ?

I still like the 4th a lot more than the 6th because of the options to approach the green, and the slight rise in front that makes the decision more important (fly or bounce).

Into a north wind you can't reach the 4th green in two.

# 4 is a hard hole, with or without wind, perhaps one of the more difficult, non-gimmickie holes in golf.  But, there aren't alot of options with respect to approaching the green from the DZ.

I'm always interested in how golfers theorize about the play of a hole, how they grant themselves amazing powers to hit shots well beyond their ability, you'd think everyone was a +8 handicap.

Yesterday, into a decent head wind, from the blue, not the  back gold tees, a group composed of two 1 handicaps, one 3 and one 4, all hit perfect drives, yet noone hit the green.
Two of the group were members.  Into a north wind, there is no running the ball up to the green from the DZ.  And, hitting it right is jail, short left is jail, long, which is doubtful is jail.
Left or short right is good, but still leaves a difficult recovery, especially to firm and fast greens.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Alas, this is Pat Jr.

Gee, I just assumed Pat and Pat Jr. were the same guy, posting under a different account for some reason.  
John,

You're correct.[/color]

Hello Pat Jr.  I met and played golf with your dad this September.  He can sure play.  I played him even and he beat me 4 and 1.  He's very confident, isn't he?

That was a nice day at GCGC.  Good weather, good course, good golf and Bill and Phil are terrific fellows.

Let me know if your travels take you to South Florida this winter.[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Wayne Morrisson,

Seminole and Seminole's bunkers are fabulous from the golfer's view.

As Matt Ward says, judging a meal by looking at a picture of the meal, and tasting the meal are two disinct events,  that can produce two widely divergent conclusions.

Aerial photos don't provide you with critical information, the dynamic elevation changes, tilt of the fairways, greens and bunkers, firm & fast conditions and the direction and velocity of the wind, all of which intertwine with one another and conspire to make a presentation to the golfer which is spectacular.

For the amateur golfer, I think Seminole trumps Pinehurst # 2.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Pat

Is the green elevated and firm?  Can you run the ball up the left channel to the green with a well planned and executed cut?  If so, it is a very interesting abstract interpretation of the 14th at Dornoch, which Ross knew well.

Rich,

You can, but, alot depends upon hole location.

A well planned and well executed shot like that would most likely succeed with a front or middle hole location.  It gets a lot dicier when the hole is cut in the back of the green.

And, wind direction and velocity is a critical element in the planning and execution stages.

I believe that part of the genius of the design is the balanced play of the golf course with changes in wind direction and velocity.

While there are prevailing winds, the south, southeast is probably the most common, but, northerly, and westerly winds sure change things and spice up play.

[wsmorrison]

At last somebody responded.  Thanks, Pat.  I intimated that maybe there is a different ground level perspective but there still seems to be a lot of repetition as to how the bunker outlines.  Is it original or was an architect or subsequent agent involved in the current bunker outlines?  Again, I am not discussing elevation change, greens or fairway countours.  I am referring only to the bunker outlines.

I believe they could very well be better integrated to their surrounds than from an aerial view.  But an aerial view does show a repetitive look and I don't see how that works well , especially in an area with native sand.

I'll try and post a photo from Google, but I have to run to an appointment.  I'll get to it later unless someone posts one before then.

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