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Glenn Spencer

Re:Skins Game- MVGC, CS, Black and Merion
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2006, 11:44:27 AM »
Never been to CS but #15 at BB is a personal favorite.  Try hitting a 4 iron into a back pin on that hole and then tell me what you think.  Best green on the course.  I still am amazed at Mickelson and Woods making birdie there in the third round of the '02 Open.

Geoffrey,

15 at Bethpage is one of my favorite holes in the game. It just doesn't get any better. Could you imagine living around there as a kid and seeing that hole all the time. Scary. However, if it is green complexes that you like, I know of no other that is as unique as the 15th as CS. It is the most unbelievable thing you will ever see.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2006, 11:45:10 AM by Glenn Spencer »

Glenn Spencer

Re:Skins Game- MVGC, CS, Black and Merion
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2006, 11:49:15 AM »
Update

1 Merion
2 Merion
3 Carry Stick- Merion
4 Black (2)
5 Black
6 Stick
7 Stick- unless somebody thinks different, I love this hole.
8 Stick
9 Merion
10 Carry Stick-Muirfield
11 Merion
12 Merion
13 Crooked Stick
14 ?
15 ?
16 Merion
17 Merion
18 Merion

wsmorrison

Re:Skins Game- MVGC, CS, Black and Merion
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2006, 06:19:55 PM »
"#5 BB vs. #5 M... A brutal comparison.  Basically comes down to the drive/fairway at BB vs. the approach/green at Merion.  I'll take Bethpage by a nose because the hole requires you to shape two shots (two different ways) vs. #5 at Merion.  I always bail out right at Merion away from the creek."

You may bail out right, leaving you with a more difficult approach, but the proper way to play Merion's fifth is to draw the ball off the tee for maximum distance (507 from the rear tee) and fade the ball into the green--often off of a hook lie.  The alternative approach when the green is firm is to carry the bunker short and right of the green to feed the ball onto the green.  Pin position is key in determining the approach shot.  So if you choose BB because it requires you to shape two different shots, I think you are misjudging Merion's 5th because that is the best way to play the hole.  

Merion's 5th is also more sophisticated in this regard:  challenging the creek gives you a flat lie.  If you are in the middle to the right side of the fairway you have the hook like when you need to hit a fade.  The ball striking requirement is much higher.  BB has an aerial approach requirement.  

There's a lot more going on at Merion than BB.

I have only played BB and Merion in your curious mix of courses.  I don't think, as good as it is, that the 4th at BB is as good as the par 5 4th at Merion.  We can debate that if you like.  Let me know what you think of my hole 5 comparison.  I may be a tad biased, but I don't think there is a hole at BB that beats Merion.

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Skins Game- MVGC, CS, Black and Merion
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2006, 06:29:35 PM »
Wayne,

One of the many things I found interesting at Merion (in my one and only round there) was the narrowness of the fairway landing area on the second shot on 4.  Has that always been that narrow, as it looked a bit odd with all that room to the right which is all rough, or is it done that way to add teeth and interest to the second shot...

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Skins Game- MVGC, CS, Black and Merion
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2006, 06:40:23 PM »
Wayne,

One of the many things I found interesting at Merion (in my one and only round there) was the narrowness of the fairway landing area on the second shot on 4.  Has that always been that narrow, as it looked a bit odd with all that room to the right which is all rough, or is it done that way to add teeth and interest to the second shot...

Sean,

That landing area has been narrowed down A LOT over the years.  I think the landing area fairway might be the hardest fairway on the course to hit.  It's totally blind, and very difficult to find.  Merion is one of my very favortie courses, but I would say that the extreme narrowness that you now find in many areas are the only drawback to the course.  While it does make it more difficult, it also takes away some of the strategy for angles that you'd have with the old widths.

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Skins Game- MVGC, CS, Black and Merion
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2006, 06:53:44 PM »
Jamie,

That is what I figured, as it looked to me like it had been narrowed like they do for Opens. I hit my second shot right and it made it a brutal third shot to that green from the rough.



wsmorrison

Re:Skins Game- MVGC, CS, Black and Merion
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2006, 06:55:45 PM »
I agree with Jamie, the second fairway was much wider than it is today--maybe 60 yards wide during the 30s.  Flynn narrowed the fairway on the right of the large fairway bunker 350 yards off the tee creating a narrow path when it use to be about 20 yards wide.  Today the fairway past this bunker is narrow and is shifted to the left so that a lot of shots end up in the right rough.  You have to know which tree in the background to use for aligning the second shot.  A lot of third approach shots to the green are from a downslope so it is hard to make solid contact to clear the creek and bunkers onto the green.  

There is a lot of grain on the greens, even at such a low mowing height, so the putts don't break as much as you think side to side and the putts front to back aren't as slow as you might think and the putts from back to front aren't as quick as you think.  Maybe it is a perception miscue as well...but I think grain does have a significant effect.

Sean,

Out of that rough it is hard to control the movement of the ball on the green--it often ends up at the very back.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2006, 06:56:27 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Skins Game- MVGC, CS, Black and Merion
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2006, 09:25:29 PM »
I haven't played MVGC, nor Crooked Stick, sadly, but I will be happy to try and attempt a match-play between BB and Merion.

1) Merion
2) Merion
3) Merion
4) BB
5) Two great holes - halved
6) BB
7) Two good holes - halved
8) Merion
9) Merion

10) Merion
11) Merion
12) BB, but I'd rather play 12 at Merion than beat my brains out on 12 at BB
13) Merion, as short par three are vastly underrated and sadly disappering.  Thankfully, there is no room to push this tee back.
14) Merion, as the short par three at BB is becoming unsightly and garish.
15) BB
16) Merion
17) Merion of the two superb par threes because of the wonderful green
18) Merion - is there an 18th hole at BB?

Mike_Cirba

Re:Skins Game- MVGC, CS, Black and Merion
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2006, 10:22:22 PM »
Man, I post showing Merion crushing Bethpage Black 12 to 4, with 2 halved, and none of the Met crowd rises to defend the Black's honor?

Is my match play analysis that indisputable?  ;)
« Last Edit: November 17, 2006, 11:48:03 PM by Mike Cirba »

wsmorrison

Re:Skins Game- MVGC, CS, Black and Merion
« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2006, 06:55:34 AM »
It is not indisputable.  Merion wins 16-1-1.  I could argue that it is really 18-0 but I don't wish to engage Matt Ward  ;)
« Last Edit: November 18, 2006, 06:56:16 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Skins Game- MVGC, CS, Black and Merion
« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2006, 12:22:32 AM »
Man, I post showing Merion crushing Bethpage Black 12 to 4, with 2 halved, and none of the Met crowd rises to defend the Black's honor?

Is my match play analysis that indisputable?  ;)

I once did this same (rediculous) exercise with Friars Head and Merion thinking my reverse hometown bias would deal Merion a death blow.  It was pretty close till 16, 17 and 18 at Merion which simply destroys any match play match-up that I can think of. Sand Hills and National's 16-18 are real close but that Hogan 1 iron squeezes it out!

Trivia question: What are the longest 16-18 in golf? I don't know the answer, but "short" 6700 Yale has to be close at 1600 yards.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Skins Game- MVGC, CS, Black and Merion
« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2006, 08:59:40 AM »
I don't know, Mike, but I think I just played the longest final three holes that have a 3, 4, and 5 par.   The Norman Course at Lansdowne Resort in VA finishes 442, 663, and 247 (full carry over a lake).   Combined with the 408 yard 15th, the last four measure 1760 yards on the nose, and they bill it as "the hardest mile in golf", or some such.

Geoffrey_Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Skins Game- MVGC, CS, Black and Merion
« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2006, 08:02:36 PM »
You may bail out right, leaving you with a more difficult approach, but the proper way to play Merion's fifth is to draw the ball off the tee for maximum distance (507 from the rear tee) and fade the ball into the green--often off of a hook lie.  The alternative approach when the green is firm is to carry the bunker short and right of the green to feed the ball onto the green.  Pin position is key in determining the approach shot.  So if you choose BB because it requires you to shape two different shots, I think you are misjudging Merion's 5th because that is the best way to play the hole.  

Merion's 5th is also more sophisticated in this regard:  challenging the creek gives you a flat lie.  If you are in the middle to the right side of the fairway you have the hook like when you need to hit a fade.  The ball striking requirement is much higher.  BB has an aerial approach requirement.  

There's a lot more going on at Merion than BB.

Wayne,

You'd be hard pressed to find someone who loves Merion as much as me (I coached the Haverford School golf team there which included Tug Maude and John Sawin) but I'm not going down on the 5th at BB without a fight.  Both are world class par 4's, but that's what makes this comparison so much fun.

While the "proper way" is to hit a draw off the tee at Merion, you don't have to hit that shot... you can hit the ball anywhere from the middle of the fairway to the right rough and still have no problem getting home in two.  That's not the case at BB where the diagonal cross bunker demands an accurate tee shot and the woods on the left punish a bailout away from the long way over the bunker.  Go too far left and it becomes a par 5.  Go too far right and your in the woods.  Come up short and you are in the cross bunker which is basically like a waste area ala PV.  IMHO, the tee shot is more strategic and demanding at BB vs. Merion.

The approach shot at BB is also demanding.  Even from the middle of the fairway, you have a blind putting surface and have to hit a draw with some height to a back left pin.  Anything near the front of the green is also an issue as it becomes difficult to stop the ball on the elevated green.  Add in an extremely deep front right bunker (which glares at you) and a blind back bunker and you start to see how exacting the shot can be.  Line, shape, distance and spin must all be spot on.

The approach at Merion is similarly exacting, but in a much different way.  The front right bunker hides some of the putting surface from the right side of the fairway, but most of the green complex is visible.  Because of the steep pitch in the green, I usually aim for the front right corner just over that bunker with a short to mid-iron and hope to end up somewhere on the surface and preferably below the hole.  I know some people that think the hardest pin is front right (at the top of the pitch)... I couldn't disagree more.  While it would be difficult to get close to, at least you'd probably be putting uphill towards the hole and it takes the creek out of play.  I'd like to see the pros play a back left pin with a firm green.  In closing, while they are much closer than the tee shots, I still think BB is a more precise approach but I do like the ground game option/variables at Merion.

The green is hands down to Merion and one that has to be seen to be believed..  At US Open speeds you will see 4 putts by some of the top players.  BB has a subtle green with some speed coming down the hill which fooled players including Tiger during the final round.  However, when taking a look at the hole in its entirety, I still think BB gets the nod.

In regards to the back tees... I have seen the new tee at Merion and it is intimidating.  However, most players will rarely play there and I have also heard that Currier has added a new back tee to BB which will bring the cross bunker even more into play.  I don't think either tee really adds much to the discussion other than making these holes play more for the pros like the normal tips do for us mere mortals.

Looking forward to Round 2, Mr. Morrison...

« Last Edit: November 19, 2006, 08:05:31 PM by Geoffrey_Walsh »

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