Could a McDonalds model be good for golf..

[John Kavanaugh]

What would be the upside and downsides of a golf franchise much like McDonalds where every city of any size would have a course cheap enough for people on the poverty line to play but on a quality level of McDonalds food.  Please remember that a Big Mac in New York is just the same as a Big Mac in Indiana regardless of land aquistion costs.

[Tom Huckaby]

Sounds like a hell of a positive thing to me.

But don't most "cities of any size" have these already?  Their muni courses?  And aren't most priced low enough for folks to play... at least those "on the poverty line" in the area?

Seems to me each city has at least one pretty good muni... and none are ever all that expensive....

But then again, maybe you value Macdonald's food higher than I do.

 

[John Kavanaugh]

Huck,

Much like McDonalds and how a Big Mac is a Big Mac every course would be template holes exactly the same.  Don't you miss some of the mom and pop burger joints that McDonalds put out of business.

[John Goodman]

The notion that every city would have an identical golf course seems kind of depressing to me.

One could say that the RTJ Trail is a little like your model for Alabama though, come to think about it.

[John Kavanaugh]

This would be one architect, one price golf always undercutting the market..

[John Kavanaugh]

The notion that every city would have an identical golf course seems kind of depressing to me.

One could say that the RTJ Trail is a little like your model for Alabama though, come to think about it.

I would call the RTJ Trail the Red Lobster of golf..or even an Outback if you want to talk steaks.

[Dan Kelly]

Don't you miss some of the mom and pop burger joints that McDonalds put out of business.

McDonald's customers put them out of business.

I don't know what (if anything) that has to do with golf -- but if every municipality had a template golf course as satisfying as a Sausage McMuffin, at a Sausage McMuffin price, I think the country clubs would be hurtin'!

[Tom Huckaby]

Aha - I get it - template courses, quality assurance.  Sorry to be so initially dense.  Happens all the time.

 

OK, I still think it's a neat idea.  Given the standard-ness of the courses, they wouldn't be popular with visitors - just as John G. says.  To me that means greater tee-time availability for their intended constituency, locals wanting a decent bang for their buck.  Those types don't tend to travel much anyway... so what do they care if their course is a lot like one in the city a few hundred miles away?  As long as it's fun for them and they can afford it, I can't see it being anything but a good thing.  It won't advance the "art" of golf course architecture at all, but hell there's enough of that going on as it is.

As for undercutting local mom and pop courses, well... they'd have to improve or lower their prices to compete, and to me that's a good thing.  If it causes too many courses to close though, of course that's a bad thing.  I just don't see that happening.  But my view is swayed by living in a market that is HORRIBLE in terms of per-capita golf courses.

TH

[Garland Bayley]

How can you have cheap golf if you go to the expense of building all the courses to be the same?

Less than stellar idea John.

You would be better off working on the drive through window. I.e., how to get the most golfers through in the least amount of time. Does framing architecture come to anyones mind?

[John Goodman]

that's rather Trail-like.

Though the Trail would be more like Applebees or The Olive Garden.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

John,
 McDonald's food is loaded with transfats, artificial flavors and God-only-knows how many more substances and chemcicals that the human body should never ever ingest. Their "product" lacks every creative thought or idea that ever went into the idea of what a meal should ever be about. I know this because I was addicted to MacDonald's "brand" of food that I thought I needed for sustanence. Make that I had to have at all costs.

Ask Tim Weiman or Neil Regan or Geoff Childs how many times when talking to them on the phone, I would suddenly say--"hold on a second..." put my phone on mute and proceed to order 4-$.99 double cheeseburgers with extra cheese and add mayo, a bucket of fries and top off the hyporcracy, a Diet Coke, then take them off-mute and tell them I just ordered a Diet Coke.

While I'll confess here I am going to forever be a addicted golfer and golf architecture idiot, but it's far more healthier and better then being addicted to that crap they call food.

I think the masses deserve better then that, and so do I.

[John Kavanaugh]

Don't you miss some of the mom and pop burger joints that McDonalds put out of business.

McDonald's customers put them out of business.

I don't know what (if anything) that has to do with golf -- but if every municipality had a template golf course as satisfying as a Sausage McMuffin, at a Sausage McMuffin price, I think the country clubs would be hurtin'!

Dan this has everthing to do with golf architecture and the future of the game...btw..I will pay twice to three times the cost of a Sausage McMuffin to eat a breakfast off of clean china in a nice hotel.  I don't see a McDonalds type franchise hurting private clubs at all.

[John Kavanaugh]

How can you have cheap golf if you go to the expense of building all the courses to be the same?

Less than stellar idea John.

You would be better off working on the drive through window. I.e., how to get the most golfers through in the least amount of time. Does framing architecture come to anyones mind?

Garland,

How can McDonalds charge the same for a Big Mac when land in some locales costs ten times at another...

[Tom Huckaby]

Tommy:

Removing the food part out of this.... for all of our health...

Sure the masses deserve better golf courses.  But my assumption is that in each city they have other options... they just might have to pay more.

If this formulaic system gives them a good course at an affordable price, who is harmed?

[john_stiles]

If at a poverty level,  golf doesn't make much sense what with clubs, balls, and green fees and such.

But if you could just get a few template holes to work with, maybe this would work.

The only remotely golf related topic this brings to mind is the old Tom Thumb from early 1920s, and the more 'modern' Putt-Putt models.  Those worked fairly well for the distant hill billy half cousin,  miniature golf.   I always had to play the Putt Putt, a true test of putting; as opposed to the Dinosaur, through the Clown's mouth,  type of course.

With reasonable golf at $20 per round in my area, how much lower could you go for green fee in metro areas and mow the grass occasionally ?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom,
You missed my point. Substance before quantity. While the MickeyD's model may be a good business plan, it has done little in the realm of quality, knowledge and just simple good taste. We are now a nation of pigs.

Simply put, build an In And Out Golf Course, (Rustic Canyon) it's quality, natural and while it isn't always healthy, certainly it's better then having a McRib which is processed pig nutrified with God-knows who what they decided to put in there to make it taste-like an In and Out burger, or at leaqst compete with it taste wise.

This entire thread of John's has to have been inspired by the release of Fast Food nation in today's theaters. I know how John thinks.

[Lou_Duran]

How can McDonalds charge the same for a Big Mac when land in some locales costs ten times at another?

JK,

MacDs pricing is not uniform throughout the U.S.  But, let's say that it is and in NYC and Los Angeles they lose 10 cents on every burger sold.  Some would say that they'd simply make it up in volume (and Milton Friedman would already start rolling in his grave).

I do like the concept loosely applied, i.e. the design objectives, construction, and maintenance would be common, but the actual holes would vary with the land and site characteristics.   Ran Morrissett liked Pinion Hills (Farmington, NM) and the adjacent elementary school with a bunch of kids on the playground so much that he declared all communities should have one like it.   We actually informally pitched a similar public-private model to the Nicklaus organization over 10 years ago that went nowhere.

The problem with the franchise concept is the profit motive, and low green fees, high land costs, and huge regulatory hurdles just don't go together.  Nice thought nonetheless.

Personally, I am an Egg McMuffin man, china or paper.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tommy - no, I got your point completely.

But my question remains.  I don't see the harm that you apparently do.  Because while there are lots of Macdonalds', there are also lots of In and Outs.

Is your assumption that the building of these formula courses means no Rustic Canyons also get built?

If that occurs, then yes this is a bad thing.

I just see it very real that they could exist side by side.

TH

[Aaron Katz]

This idea has some serious merit.  You could easily build 18 template holes and plop those exact holes down in every city provided that you could get a perfectly flat piece of land.  The only changes that would need be made would be based on the soil drainage characteristics and factors such as wind (bunker depths might have to be altered, for example).  Does this sound right?

From an economic perspective, you are likely to get a much more well thought out course due to economies of scale -- coming up with the routing and green complexes would take a substantial amount of time for the first course (provided that you wanted the routing and the greens to be really well done), but spread those costs over, say, 50 cities?  

[Gary Daughters]

Yes, McDonalds would be good for golf.  It might be a good thing in and of itself (no template needed), but were the economic model proven viable, it could encourage similar ventures on an upward scale.  Would that be good for golf architecture?  Who knows?

Years ago SI did a great profile of Jim Colbert, who invested in a slew of courses geared toward affordability and, according to the article, got very rich in the process.

[Dan Kelly]

I don't see a McDonalds type franchise hurting private clubs at all.

I was being facetious -- about the effect on private clubs, if not about how good a Sausage McMuffin is, or about who it was that put the mom-and-pop burger stands out of business (mostly).

Some great ones out there, still, though, aren't there?

[Tom_Doak]

John:

I think this was basically the Tom Bendelow / Spalding business model back in 1900.  Some of those courses are still around.

The issue today is whether someone wouldn't always want to pay a little more to strive for something better -- I'm talking franchisees here, not customers.  A new public course costs several million dollars to develop, so few developers are looking for the lowest priced architect, more of them let their egos get involved.  Perhaps there is a McDonald's niche, but someone would have to have some proven success with their templates before they could franchise it on a large scale.

[cary lichtenstein]

John

Come on, you are putting us on.

Who would want cookie cutter anything?

Cary

[Tom Huckaby]

Cary:

Try to think like an urban, frugal golfer.  You never travel (can't afford it), and you have very little money to spend on the game.  Still you love to play and likely piss off your family at how much money you do spend.

Seems to me this person would enjoy a nicely built course with holes that are proven to be fun, at a price he can afford and not piss off the family.  

Since he doesn't travel, what does he care if they're just like holes on a courses in other cities?

I believe the cookie-cutter aspect of this is irrelevant.  Now if you want to argue as Tommy and others have that my frugal golfer deserves better - or that the building of these means that other more creative and still cost-effective courses don't get built - that I can understand.

But who would want a cookie-cutter course?

I think my golfer described above would love it.

TH

[John Kavanaugh]

I never meant to imply this would be a good thing...especially not for a guy like me who hates people in general and can't stand in a line of a fast foot restaurant without losing my appetite.  I personally wish the first franchised food establishment had never been built as I can only imagine all the wonderful meals I have missed in leau of a drive through.  I really miss the old roadside stands with big fake root beer barrels out side, not to mention the fall of the american diner.

That being said...I think the technology to create "McDonald" courses is not that far away especially as synthetic materials start to grace the horizon.  I see a slight artificial upside in the beginning of the process with some possible increased play and affordability...with perfect templates you need far fewer clubs and never lose a ball.  The long term downside is the eventual destruction of the game and courses as worthless as an abandoned go cart track.

This thread was not born out of an idea from a movie opening this weekend (never heard of it) but out of a flashback to something I said once about McDonalds when in college.  I refused to eat there because I thought it was the destruction of American culture.  I did sober up and cave later in life (probably an hour later when the munchies kicked in).