[Chris Cupit]

I understand Donald Ross was very prolific and has a huge body of work.  

I have played Royal Dornoch where he grew up as well as:
Oak Hill
Athens CC
Pinehurst #2
Savannah Inn & CC on Wilmington island
Monroe GC in Pittsford NY

I'd like to better appreciate his work but here is my question.  I understand that on many courses, he might have visited the site only once or twice and in some caases, never.  I have just been through a construction project and saw how  much can actually change in the dirt.

Do "Ross people" consider anything he had a hand in a "Ross course" even if he never set foot on the property?  What's the best place to begin to study or appreciate his work?


 

[Mike_Young]

You don't know what you are starting......

[John_Conley]

 What's the best place to begin to study or appreciate his work?

On the couch reading Brad's book.

Finish it and you'll see that many of your questions were addressed.

[Mike_Young]

just sent you an IM regarding thse dead guys

[Jeff_Mingay]

Chris,

The genesis of any good Ross design is the routing. He very frequently "nailed" the routing, which is why so many of his courses are very good, if not great.

Of course, his greatest courses are those where he paid attention to further details; most notably, contouring in and around the greens.

I'd say, if the routing hasn't changed since Ross laid the course in question out, it's a Ross course.

[John_Conley]

I meant to say:

The seminal work of Dr. Brad Klein is titled Discovering Donald Ross and should be required for anyone interested in studying the work of the Golden Age's most prolific architect.  But don't think that is the only book to read as a riveting recap of the reclamation of The Orchards is chronicled in Rough Meditations.  Your education of Ross begins here.

[John_Conley]

Perhaps the better question, Grasshopper-san, is, "when is a Ross not a Ross?"

[Brad Klein]

John Conley,

I thought our marketing agreement just specified italics; what's with the red boldface?

[PThomas]

John Conley,

I thought our marketing agreement just specified italics; what's with the red boldface?

very good Brad!

[John_Conley]

John Conley,

I thought our marketing agreement just specified italics; what's with the red boldface?

Brad, sometimes I go beyond.

To the person that started the thread: It may seem like we're having fun at your expense, but my answer is sincere.  "Discovering Donald Ross" is a comprehensive overview on the man's life, including addressing the question WHEN IS A ROSS A ROSS?

You should be able to find one on Amazon.

[Chris Cupit]

John,

I am not worried if a little fun is had at my expense .

I feel confident in my knowledge of many things in golf but I know when that knowledge is lacking and it's certainly re: Donald Ross.

I have enjoyed Michel J. Fay's "Golf, as it was meant to be played" and look forward to learning more and appreciate any suggestions.

It does seem that evrywhere one turns, a club proudly proclaims itself a "Ross" masterpiece.  A little investigation sometimes shows that multiple architects have since worked on the course and in some cases, "Ross courses" were never visited by Mr. Ross.

If an architect only routes the course and then someone else builds and maintains it, is that "his" course.  I think so but I'd like to hear other opinions.

Having just gone through a renovation, I know we had plans to work from, but almost every day there was fine tuning, tweaking and some flat out big changes at times that were never reflected in the plans.  If 50 years from now, someone wanted to restore my course and relied on the "original plans" they would have not accurately reflected the architects wishes that changed during the job.

I just wonder if that same thing can happen when someone goes to restore a Ross course and if it could happen, how serious a problem is it to those trying to remain faithful to Mr. Ross' work.

A big advantage that I see in restoring a Ross course is that his body of work is so large that it is easier to understand his philosophy of golf and make a more educated guess when need be as to what he would have done.

[Chris Cupit]

Brad,

I have also enjoyed "Rough Meditations".

Something (or is that someone) tells me I need another seminal work on Mr. Ross,  it's coming to me...but..all I can see...is red
 

[D_Malley]

i can really see what you are saying.  we are currently doing some work on our course with jim wagner of gil hanse's co., and it is amazing at how the finished product differs from the original drawings.  but it seems that usually the design strategy remains unchanged.  though you almost always see differences between the two.  so if you are trying to restore a course to historical drawings, you may just be changing the course from the GCA's original design.

[Willie_Dow]

Who were Ross' local area partners, or assistants to his firm ?

[RSLivingston_III]

Has anyone considered coming up with a percentage scale for authenticity of classic courses? Personally, unless the course has done a historical restoration I feel like I need to go out with a copy of the original plan and visualize the original course. If you are not looking at the original bunkering, routing, and green locations (and sizes!), how can you consider what you are looking at as an example of that architects work.
I recently went around Barton Hills with a copy of their original routing map. To be able to stand on some of those tees, or approach shots, and "visualize" the original course with the bunkering placed back into the mostly still existing land forms was very exciting. To think the membership doesn't want to return to the original makes you want to cry.
I think Barton isn't as bad off as many other Ross's, and would probably give it a 75-85%. It does make me wonder about other great classics like Augusta and Oakland HIlls and wonder if they are still classics. Augusta has to be something like 10-20% MacKenzie and Oakland Hills maybe something like 30%?
At what percentage point is the threshold for it becoming a "modern" course and no longer attributable to the original designer?

[RSLivingston_III]

I am still trying to understand how people are looking at the courses. When you go somewhere and the course has been reworked over the years, say all the bunkering redone & relocated by one of the Jones's, do you just look at the routing and put out of your mind the other work? Do you look at it and say "Wow this used to be a good Ross"?
The statements on this site lead me to believe people think they are actually viewing a REAL Ross course and not the modernized remnants of one of the greats. If you don't view the course with some historical documentation in hand, how can you say you are viewing that architects work?

[Mark_Fine]

Brad,
You need to think beyond just having "italics" in your marketing arrangements with people/websites.  For example, anytime the word "hazard" or "bunker" shows up in a post, a link to our book on amazon.com is sent to the poster    You should be doing the same thing with the word Ross  
Mark

[RSLivingston_III]

Brad,
You need to think beyond just having "italics" in your marketing arrangements with people/websites.  For example, anytime the word "hazard" or "bunker" shows up in a post, a link to our book on amazon.com is sent to the poster    You should be doing the same thing with the word Ross  
Mark

Guess I will be getting a few e-mails....

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