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SWolffe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Fishers
« on: November 16, 2006, 02:00:21 PM »
http://www.mysticislerealty.com/

This is from a friend that is a member.  

go to the “island news” link and look at the stormy weekend pictures of the golf course…yikes.  

Looks kind of like that today in Maryland.  

Best,
Stuart Wolffe

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fishers
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2006, 02:11:57 PM »
welcome Stuart, and thanks

how late in the year does FI stay open??
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fishers
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2006, 02:12:27 PM »
SWolfe,

Thank you for posting. I was there in June and I must say it was somewhat different, in fact idyllic.

Bob

SWolffe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fishers
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2006, 02:26:11 PM »
I believe they punch the greens a weekend or two after Labor Day and formally close soon after.  

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fishers
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2006, 02:42:24 PM »
In a somewhat related question, I had a friend tell me that the HOG tournament and parade at Fisher's over labor day weekend is open to non-members....I can't believe this is the case....maybe invitational?

Does anyone know of this tourney?
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Phil_the_Author

Re:Fishers
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2006, 02:49:14 PM »
C'mon Stu...

Post on the "Who are you guys thread" and let everyone know!

How's BCC looking?

Jim Nugent

Re:Fishers
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2006, 03:34:59 PM »
Is that kind of flooding common at Fishers?  What does it do to the golf course?  

michael j fay

Re:Fishers
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2006, 03:51:58 PM »
Fishers used to close around the first of October. About ten years ago they stayed through the 15th. Now they close nearer the end of October.

There are a couple of very bad drainage areas on the course. It is the stretch from 13-16. Thirteen in the landing area from the tee is at grade with the surrounding water. The fourteenth farway was raised near the green about 18 inches a few years back. It could still use some fill. The 15th fairway is the lowest point on the course, visably below the grade of the water that abuts. It seems that they are filling that area as well. The bunkers and the little area around them on # 16 will fill with water and not drain well because there is no place for the water to go. Fill is mucho expensivo on Fishers because it nearly always has to be transported from off the island.




wsmorrison

Re:Fishers
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2006, 06:25:48 PM »
With an engineer designing the golf course, it seems odd that the drainage is so poor.  Was it always this way?  Did past hurricanes affect the heights of some of the fairways and greens?

The Creek had significant and costly problems with drainage as well.  These issues ending up costing more than $100,000 to fix and Macdonald pointed the finger at his engineer (rightly or wrongly).  I don't know if Lido had similar issues.  Could it be that there was a lack of talent designing drainage and understanding necessary fairway elevations?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2006, 06:28:43 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fishers
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2006, 08:25:22 PM »
What surprised me is how relatively affordable properties on Fishers Island seem to be (according to Mystic Isle Realty). Keep in mind that my comparisons are in NY Metro area.

A cottage with water views for $665K?

A viable liquor store business for $100K?

A 1/3 acre lot with water views for $295K?

Darn it, I'm going....

I will live in the cottage, run the liquor store, and caddy at Fishers Island...  ;D
« Last Edit: November 16, 2006, 08:26:31 PM by Voytek Wilczak »

Chris Moore

Re:Fishers
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2006, 09:40:53 PM »
Hey -- That looks like my course in New Orleans circa September 2005!   ;)

Pat Howard

Re:Fishers
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2006, 03:15:59 AM »
You could take a boat from the 15th tee box after teeing off!!

 :o

wsmorrison

Re:Fishers
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2006, 07:56:54 AM »
Why did Raynor have so much difficulty with drainage and proper growing mediums at the Creek Club and at Fishers Island?  Did Banks finish the construction at FI?  Are the problem holes on work that is attributed to Raynor or Banks or both?  I may assume incorrectly that there's always been drainage issues at FI, perhaps natural forces caused the present issues over the intervening decades at FI.  Was the golf course situated on proper ground?  On the other hand, it is a fact that there were problems at Creek from the very beginning and Macdonald blamed his engineer.

Are these issues worth scrutinizing?  The disfunctions should not be swept under the rug because of this site's overwhelming regard for everything Macdonald and Raynor.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2006, 07:58:19 AM by Wayne Morrison »

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Fishers
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2006, 09:58:49 AM »
Wayne,

Where did anyone get the idea there are drainage problems at Fishers? It's the ocean that overtakes the land on parts of 13, 14, 15 and 16. That has nothing to do with drainage. High tide surges reach the white tees on 4. A bunker that was once behind the 9th green was all but destroyed in the Hurricane of 1938.

Anthony

Kyle Harris

Re:Fishers
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2006, 12:22:12 PM »
Why did Raynor have so much difficulty with drainage and proper growing mediums at the Creek Club and at Fishers Island?  Did Banks finish the construction at FI?  Are the problem holes on work that is attributed to Raynor or Banks or both?  I may assume incorrectly that there's always been drainage issues at FI, perhaps natural forces caused the present issues over the intervening decades at FI.  Was the golf course situated on proper ground?  On the other hand, it is a fact that there were problems at Creek from the very beginning and Macdonald blamed his engineer.

Are these issues worth scrutinizing?  The disfunctions should not be swept under the rug because of this site's overwhelming regard for everything Macdonald and Raynor.

From what I've seen of the Creek Club, it's basically built on a swamp and lake land. I doubt any architect would be able to drain that effectively. What's the elevation there? On the eastern seaboard, it's very difficult to get water to move any lower than, well, sea level.

wsmorrison

Re:Fishers
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2006, 02:37:18 PM »
Anthony,

I was going by Michael Fay's post a few posts above my own.  Here is his post:

"There are a couple of very bad drainage areas on the course. It is the stretch from 13-16. Thirteen in the landing area from the tee is at grade with the surrounding water. The fourteenth farway was raised near the green about 18 inches a few years back. It could still use some fill. The 15th fairway is the lowest point on the course, visably below the grade of the water that abuts. It seems that they are filling that area as well. The bunkers and the little area around them on # 16 will fill with water and not drain well because there is no place for the water to go. Fill is mucho expensivo on Fishers because it nearly always has to be transported from off the island."

Kyle,

Swamp and lake land?  I have never seen a lake on the property, but I may not know the technical terms as well as you
 ;)  As for swamps, well there are low lying lands where they decided to put the golf course.  Don't you think a criticism can be based on where they put the golf course?  If the soil on the water holes was salty, low lying and subject to flooding, I might have thought twice about putting a golf course there.  You can't blame the natural state of the land if it wasn't suited for golf and you put a golf course there.  You can blame the guy who decided to try.

The remediation effort that cost so much money to fix the problems corrected the problems.  So why don't you think any architect would be able to drain the ground effectively?  The very best architects might not have even tried.  Or if they did, they would have gotten it more right the first time.  And his boss should've not pointed any fingers and taken some of the blame himself since he oversaw the project and the responsibility was his.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2006, 02:38:45 PM by Wayne Morrison »

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Fishers
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2006, 03:02:31 PM »
Wayne,

First and foremost, it's 80 years after the course was built so land shifting  and settling is to be expected. No architect - well other than Tom Doak - could foresee that.

Second of all, and I'm taking the golf course superintendent on his word with this, the sea level has risen in the last 15 years. For instance, the land had to be raised on the right side of the 16th green because unusually high tides - not storm surges - were getting into the bunker. The land does not show signs of settling.

If you have not seen a lake or pond on the land then you did not look hard enough. Mr. Fay was right in his description. Fresh water ponds can be found on 1, 2, 4, 7, 8, and 17. Originally the pond on 1 went well into the fairway.

I cannot even attempt to act as if I know what a long-deceased architect was thinking but I do know this, if I was building the golf course now and was allowed, I'd route the holes in the corridors that are 12, 13, and 14 without hesitation. Yes, there might be salt water contamination problems but I would be a fool not to take the golfer right to the ocean as often as I could.

And who knows, maybe the course did drain better 80 years ago. The salt water inlet next to 13 and 14 may have been much deeper and therefore capable of handling the higher tides better. For all we know there could be sediment 6 feet deep that wasn't there.

Just because it is the way it is now, does not mean that is how it always was or will be.

Not sure what you mean by "The remediation efforts that cost so much money to fix the problem corrected the problem."

Anthony


wsmorrison

Re:Fishers
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2006, 03:39:07 PM »
Anthony,

I mentioned that natural causes might have played a part in the current state of affairs there, so I don't know why first and foremost you need to bring that to my attention.

I think sea level has been rising about 1mm per year until the early 1990s when it has increased to about 3mm per year.  So maybe the sea level has increased by a foot or so over the last 80 years.  Does that indicate that sea level changes account for much of the problems?

When I said I did not see a lake, I was clearly referring to the Creek Club because I was responding to what Kyle has seen.  You are mistaken in thinking I was referring to Fishers Island, a place I have never seen.

If you were routing a golf course now, I suppose you are talking of FI here, and wanted to take the golfers into hole corridors 12-14, I suspect, if allowed, you would raise the height of the playing area.  I could be wrong.

You repeat that maybe the course isn't as it was.  I readily admitted this from the start.  My question was if this was not the case and there were errors at the Creek and I believe Lido, why did they keep making mistakes in this area?

"Not sure what you mean by "The remediation efforts that cost so much money to fix the problem corrected the problem." "

I admit that it is not artfully stated, yet it should be clear.  Kyle stated that he didn't think any architect could have remedied the situation at the Creek Club.  I pointed out that the situation was fixed but at great expense.  
« Last Edit: November 17, 2006, 03:40:38 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Sean Remington (SBR)

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fishers
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2006, 07:37:03 AM »
Is it possible that Fishers is the way it is because it was anticipated that the main season for play was during the summer. This would allow time in the Spring for recovery from winter storms and flooding. It does appears that the greens were built with proper elevations so that they would be protected.

TEPaul

Re:Fishers
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2006, 08:41:34 AM »
Michael J:

When we were playing Fishers this summer someone in our group mentioned that one idea was to have a hole from about the present 13th tee to around the 14th green and then on from there. Was that you who said that? Somebody in the group said it (I doubt it could've been John Fought because he'd never been there before) because it prompted me to walk behind and to the left of the 14th green and look back up towards the 13th tee. That didn't exactly look like low lying land to me and of course it would've avoided the area of the present 13th and 14th.

You do realize, don't you that it appeared Raynor had one helluva hole on the second course that came back at the clubhouse from the west with a mighty drive across an inlet? On paper it looked magnificent. Maybe they could have two holes over there if they used that iteration of Raynor's of coming from the 13th tee to the 14th green. If they have to tear down a bunch of multi-million dollar houses behind #18, so what?

Oh wait, that would make a 19 hole golf course wouldn't it?

Damn it---those bloody Scots and their friggin 18 hole model.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2006, 08:50:47 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Fishers
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2006, 08:57:27 AM »
Hey Wayno, I know precisely what you're trying to say on this thread.

You're trying to say those two stumble-bums Macdonald and Raynor pretty much screwed up miserbly every time they got anywhere near the water right?

They say Macdonald screwed around with a lot of females but it looks like he (and his pissboy Raynor) took on more than even he could handle whenever he tried to screw around with Mother Nature.

;)
« Last Edit: November 18, 2006, 08:58:53 AM by TEPaul »

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fishers
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2006, 09:20:35 AM »
The map of Fishers Island shows a "Hay Harbor" golf course at the opposite end of the island. Can anyone comment on that course? Is it 9 or 18 holes?    

TEPaul

Re:Fishers
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2006, 09:20:47 AM »
I'll tell you something Wayno, if I ever could've been a fly on the wall at a board meeting of a golf club it would've been The Creek Club's board meeting on October 26, 1926---the one and only time The Creek's board met at the Links Club in NYC.

Those board meeting minutes are pretty basic info but there is little doubt the way that particular meeting minutes are written that that was the time Herbert Dean and C.B Macdonald really had it out over those so-called "water holes" or "lower holes" at The Creek. It sounded like they had the walls rocking!

Macdonald called for a complete study under his guidance of what the problems were and who was responsible and it's pretty clear Dean must have said something like; "I've already done that study by consulting with a number of architects (one obviously being Flynn) and its you and your pissboy Raynor who were totally responsible you arrogant SOB!"

It looks like Macdonald jumped up and took a swing at Dean and the two titans had to be restrained.

Within six weeks Macdonald had resigned from The Creek.

Charles Blair Macdonald was undeniably an opinionated and extremely willful man but his problem, it seems, was he came up against a number of others in his career in the USGA and with golf courses who were even more opinionated, willful and powerful than he was.

Personally, I think it may've really depressed Macdonald in the last 15 years of his life at least.

I think one of the most interesting things about Macdonald's career in American golf is that even as opinionated, willful and powerful as he was and could be, it was he who was the first to realize when he'd met his match.

Some of those guys he dealt with at some of those New York clubs were some of the biggest titans in the country and they were probably far more used to getting their way than even he was.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2006, 09:23:36 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Fishers
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2006, 09:27:22 AM »
David Tepper:

Have you ever heard that old WASP credo that children are best when they are out of sight and out of mind?

Well, that's what the Hay Harbor course was created for. In other words get those little no-neck monsters out of my sight by taking them to the other end of this island and letting them hack around on their own little golf course.

You should also know that before the Fishers island club (and corporation) was formed most all of Fishers Island was owned by one family.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2006, 09:29:24 AM by TEPaul »

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Fishers
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2006, 12:04:25 AM »
The map of Fishers Island shows a "Hay Harbor" golf course at the opposite end of the island. Can anyone comment on that course? Is it 9 or 18 holes?    

David,

Next to Olympic's 9 hole course, it is number 2 on my 9 hole list to play, with Fenwick (CT) sitting at number 3. First time at Fishers, my host drove us to Hay Harbor first. I got out of the car and was totally pumped to play Fishers! Went back a second time to walk around last trip and felt the same way. See Michael Moore's Maine Island post from this summer. Is it great, probably not. However, it looks like a very fun way to kill an afternoon.

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