[Patrick_Mucci]

makes you want to go straight from the 18th green to the 1st tee ?

And, at what clubs did you get that feeling ?

[Dan Kelly]

The approaches, the chips and the putts that the design requires and/or (and better yet) allows.

It's almost never the tee shots that make me want to play again.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan Kelly,

What course met that test for you ?

[Dean Paolucci]

Often times it is conditions, however more than not it is the greensites.  Interesting, subtle, tough, challenging all come to mind.  I think of places like Somerset Hills, National Golf Links, The Knoll, PVGC, and The Upper at Baltusrol as examples of greensites I yern to have another shot at time and time again.  Just OMO.

[Adam Clayman]

It's a combination of imagination required and a medium that encourages it.

[David Stamm]

Pat, I haven't had the extensive experience that many here have had in regards to playing the greats. In my experience, courses that come to mind are Pasatiempo, because I never get tired of looking at the beautiful artistry of the bunkers and the challenge of the greens. Rustic Canyon, because to quote Da Vinci, simplicity is the highest form of sophistication. The course looks so simple in many cases, yet presents so many options. And finally, Pebble Beach, because, well, if the beauty found there doesn't make you want to go right back to the first tee, then you need to take up another game. (But only if i didn't have to pay another $400 to replay.)

[Jordan Wall]

From what I hear: Sand Hills

From what I have experienced: Kapalua Plantation, Tumble Creek, Aldarra


I forgot to add why.  At each of the courses which I have played and that I have listed, one charcteristic is a strong finish.  In the case of Kapalua, nothing much needs to be said.  As for Aldarra and Tumble Creek, they each have very strong finishing holes and my favorite holes on the course are in the first five holes.

At Aldarra, I am very particular to the first hole, which would make a great 11th or 12th hole and is a good, brute of a starting hole, at least at the tees which make it a 440 yard hole.  I love the third hole as well.  A very good, uphill par-five that is pure challenge and the second shot really makes you think about position as some pins are hardly accessible from certain areas of the fairway.  Thosde two holes plus great views make me want to jump right back on the first tee after 18.

At Tumble Creek, #1, #3, and #4 are my favorite holes on the course. #'s 1-5 is the best five hole stretch on the course, and one of the better five hole stretches in Wasjington, IMO.  Plus, with the excitement of #18 as soo as I walk off the green I am thinking about my next round.  Plus, again, the views are to die for!

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

I think two things that come immediately to mind for me are playability and fun, and they are very interrelated.

Most of the courses that will get mentioned here are ones where the mid to higher handicapper has a fighting chance, and while their errant shots end up having a negative outcome, it is not often at the cost of a lost ball and stroke.

I played a course yesterday that would fit nicely into the recent "penal" course discussion, and for the average golfer, it's probably a 3-sleeve course given the constant narrowness, everpresent wetland hazards, and any number of forced carries.   I couldn't imagine going back to the first tee at the end of the round as I was physically exhausted, even if mentally untaxed.

Instead, I love a course where I can stand over any shot and consider multiple ways to play it, depending on conditions.  To me, that's the FUN factor.

Courses that dictate only one type of shot too often become stultifyingly dull, even if "challenging" in the conventional sense.   There is simply no thought involved, and it all becomes about rote execution.  On the other hand, if I feel that I'm in control of what I can attempt, and the architecture facilitates that freedom, then I may pay a price for my choices, but at least they're mine, and I can try something else the next time.

[Gary Daughters]

Pat,

The last time I recall doing that was at Brora.  I wish I could tell you it was the architecture, and since the course finishes so strongly architecturally and visually maybe it was.  #'s 15, 16 and 17 at Brora are wondrous.  All par 4's, all different, all challenging and all "elemental."  #15 and #17 play slightly downhill and #17 has the pristine blue ocean in the distance beyond.  At Brora they are among the holes that might pass as somewhat "manicured."  

Architecture aside, the lasting impression I still have is that of a furious battle with and against the elements (read wind).  What an adrenaline rush.  I pretty much ran from 18 to 1.  It didn't hurt that I had the course pretty much to myself.

Brora #15




Brora #16



Brora #17

[Tim Bert]

makes you want to go straight from the 18th green to the 1st tee ?

And, at what clubs did you get that feeling ?

I get this feeling just about any time I'm on a true golf vacation, regardless of the quality of the courses.

The ones that really get me jazzed are the ones with great green complexes.  Pacific Dunes, Pinehurst #2, Sand Hills, Ballyneal.

I also get pumped up at the ones where I could simply take it all in and walk the course without even pulling a club out of the bag.  Scenery beyond the golf course helps in this category, but good architecture doesn't hurt.  All of the courses as Bandon as well as Banff Springs fall into this category for me.

Finally, and admittedly not an architectural issue, the ones where I feel like I can get out and play at my own pace (fast or slow) and not be bothered by anyone in front of or behind me will always draw me back to tee 1.  When you combine the "you're the only one here" feeling with a great golf course, it is hard to beat.  Sand Hills and Ballyneal (and probably many other private courses) bring home the bacon here.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Pat-

  This year, it was Huntingdon Valley CC.  Kyle, Todd Anderson and I played 18 holes in the heat on July 10 until darkness and it stays fresh in my mind to this day.  I still wish I had the daylight (and strength) to go another 18 that day.  We tried!
  The course had this quiet "WOW" factor to it--it just worked so well, it was so difficult, it required so much thought, so much execution, but was not gimmicky in the sense that a bad shot was absolutely screwed--there was a way out of jail on every hole--it was just a matter of finding the right way out of jail.  
  It was relatively clear to find the preferred location for the tee shot, and also the preferred trajectory; what made it fun was to attempt to execute the shot as was required, and watching the result when it came, or didn't, come off as planned.  It was so demanding, but so fun.  And maybe a little sadistic, chipping strong from behind 14 and watching the ball slowly gather speed and roll down the false front of the green, ending up 20 yards back in the fairway.  

  Reading this some hours later, I'll take it a step further; there is a distinct ebb and flow of holes (we played the Toomey and Flynn nines).  I could almost imagine many of the holes as parts of a musical piece, as the first nine begins with moderate difficulty, lowers a notch right around the start of the second nine, and then, after a small build-up on #12 and release on #13, the crescendo of 14-15-16-17-18.  What a finish.  
 
  There is an intangible about it--I LOVE it--and I could play it many times over.  

[M. Shea Sweeney]

garden city golf club; everytime I play I want play I to walk right over to the 1st tee.

Hay Harbor on Fishers Island, wish i could have played another nine. I guess you could add the big club on there also.

Rockaway Hunting Club, since the first high school match I played on the course, I have felt the same feeling every round; lets do it again.

Mid Pines does it to me everytime, love the course.

Gardiners Bay Golf Club, wanted to go back to the tee as soon as the round ended.

Was introduced to Goat Hill this summer, could play the course 5 times in a row.

DownBack, in Fayetteville just outside Pinehurst, if you know of the golf course please PM me.

[Eric Franzen]

I am on Mike Cirba's side here about fun, playability and multiple choices.

The one course that I recall gave me the strongest urge to head back to the 1st tee after the 18th is Royal Dornoch.

[Mark_F]

Patrick,

I imagine this particular phenomenon to be a function of other elements as much as any architectural merit.

Royal County Down tend to has that effect, and I know it has fantastic architecture, but it is the overall scale, drama and challenge that does it for me.

Conversely, Barnbougle Dunes is such a rare and special trip, and the golf fun, that you want to do it all over again, even though there are a number of exceedingly unappealing holes to play too.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

The only course I can remember wanting to go from the 18th to the first tee again was NGLA. The reason for that was it was the first time I'd really seen the IMM in effect and it just completely highlighted everything about the architecture of that golf course.

Basically clubs that have good courses, good architecture, that are not on a firm and fast maintenance program just have no idea what they're missing with their golf course.

[Michael Ryan]

Patrick,

Pine Valley, Lahinch and Waterville in Ireland meet your criteria of wanting to go from 18 green to 1 tee.

Maybe only more interesting to me, is what great courses didn't give you that feeling, as in, when you finished , you just wanted to grab a beer and put the clubs away?

Bethpage and Winged Foot West tend to do that to me, after exposing every weakness in my game for 4 plus hours.   However, by the next day, I'm day dreaming about my next trip....

[Robert Emmons]

Pat,

Fishers Island and Sebonack...Many holes you just want to see twice with different options...RHE

[Dan Kelly]

Dan Kelly,

What course met that test for you ?

Sand Hills was the first.

Since then:

The Old Course (or, at least, it would have -- if it hadn't been about 40 degrees F., with a driving rain)

Lahinch

North Berwick West

The Quarry at Giants Ridge

Sutton Bay -- every time.

[TEPaul]

"Pine Valley, Lahinch and Waterville in Ireland meet your criteria of wanting to go from 18 green to 1 tee."

Michael:

I've never relished going from the 18th green to the 1st tee at Pine Valley because it's always meant overtime or a sudden death playoff. I think I did it a bit more than a half dozen times and my recollection is my record wasn't very good.   I'd just as soon end it on the 18th and walk directly into the clubhouse the victor.  

[PThomas]

Patrick - great question, btw

besides the usual suspects like Sand Hills and CPC, courses that are better than I expected them to be give me that feeling

2 examples:  Crooked Stick and Rolling Green ...and at both of those places it's strictly because of the architecture, because both courses are not in stunning settings like SH and CPC

[Tom Huckaby]

It's a combination of imagination required and a medium that encourages it.

Put me down with Adam - and I find that exceedingly well said.

Courses that jump out are many already mentioned... Sand Hills, Cypress Point, Rustic Canyon, NGLA....

Just keep in mind two things:

a) the "architecture" is never going to be the ONLY reason I want to go from 18 to 1; and

b) I've yet to play any course I didn't want to keep playing on.  It comes down to loving the game that much.  But I assume you want particular standouts.

TH

[Michael Ryan]

TePaul,

Great point, but I'll stick to my guns.  One never knows when his next invite to PV is, so I'll run to #1.......

[Dan Kelly]

Just keep in mind two things:

a) the "architecture" is never going to be the ONLY reason I want to go from 18 to 1; and

b) I've yet to play any course I didn't want to keep playing on.  It comes down to loving the game that much.  But I assume you want particular standouts.

I've already got too many things in my mind.

I think I'm gonna let those go!

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Is it the architecture that makes you want to go to the first tee or are there other factors involved?

So is this the ultimate test for the ARCHITECTURE of the golf course?

[Tom Huckaby]

Aha!  Mr. Sweeney cuts to the chase.

I'd be very interested in the answers of others to his questions... because I can't think of any great courses where other factors won't play in at least a little.  So yes, this is perhaps the ultimate test of architecture, as Patrick says.

And Dan, that's OK.  My questions were meant for the topic orignator.  

TH

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