[Matt_Cohn]

We've all seen that stat that the average male golfer thinks he hits it 247, and actually hits it 219. Have they done a comparable study with females? There is a huge contingent of female golfers out there that hits their driver less than 100 yards.

[Jordan Wall]

John,

Would you please change the title.
I find it rather offensive and sexist.
Shocks me really.

As for the best casual holes I have played, I would probably go with #11 Kapalua.
It is a short Par-3 that is usually downwind, it is downhill, and has a big green.

PS...golfer is g-o-l-f-e-r ...dont know what g-o-l-f-e- means..

[John_Cullum]

I believe the typical female golfer plays the game on an entirely different scale form the typical male, and generally placing some forward tees somewhere just won't make up the difference.

I believe that to enjoy the game a player should be able to get the ball on or beside the green in 2 strokes on a par 4. That will probably require approach shots of around 120 yards maximum for the typical female, but they shouldn't get the benefit of a 6500 square foot green from that distance.

Basically, my premise is that women need their own golf courses.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

Canyata was built for the four daughters of the owner and only member.  The club shines in a much better light when that is taken into consideration.

[Steve Lang]

 

Those on which she can play in relative parity with a casual man golfer.. i.e., tie or win the hole, e.g., par 3 under ~150 yd, par 4 under ~320, and par 5 under ~460.

Ms. Sheila has about a 14 index and hits driver 180-200 yds.. amazing how many men she can beat from the white tees when real golf is played.. (we have front to back: red, white, blue & black tees at our WCC courses)  it all comes down to the short game imagination and prowess.. we see many women "tee ballers" that hit farther, but have no all around game and thus can't really compete.  The young women are playing from the white and blue tees, but they aren't casual golfers!

p.s. sheila has 4 holes in one: 150 (driver), 117, 119 (7 irons), & most recent 99 yds (9 iron)

[John Kavanaugh]

Steve,

Your wife would love the first at Pinehurst #2...If she stays below the hole on the green she is a lock to win against anyone who was overly aggressive...She could beat Tiger on that hole.

[Aaron Katz]

That will probably require approach shots of around 120 yards maximum for the typical female, but they shouldn't get the benefit of a 6500 square foot green from that distance.

Why?

[Patrick_Mucci]

In the world of golf course architecture it is a preponderance of men who design the course, build the course and critique the course.  

Until that changes we as men have a responsibility to discuss the subject.  I can't see where ignoring or insulting women at every opportunity does any good for golf course architecture or Golfclubatlas in general.

JakaB,

You missed the point.
That's not the issue.

The issue is: How can you, as a man, judge the answers ?
Your question asks: what are the best golf holes for the casual woman golfer ?

Shouldn't casual women golfers be answering that question, instead of having it answered for them ?

How can you or anyone else speak on behalf of the "casual women golfer ?

How can you or anyone else declare what's a good hole for the casual women golfer ?

I was curious as to how you would establish the context in which the responses would be judged.

[Glenn Spencer]

John,

Would you please change the title.
I find it rather offensive and sexist.
Shocks me really.

As for the best casual holes I have played, I would probably go with #11 Kapalua.
It is a short Par-3 that is usually downwind, it is downhill, and has a big green.

PS...golfer is g-o-l-f-e-r ...dont know what g-o-l-f-e- means..

Wow!!! You have come a long way in your thinking Mr. Wall. I don't agree that it is sexist though. Not seeing that at all.

[RJ_Daley]

Pat, I think you have zero'd in on the problem of this thread and where Barney has dropped the ball.  

I attended a lecture by Alice Dye some years ago, at a GCSAA convo.  She has an entire prepared presentation on the subject of GCdesign for women.  Also ironically, that lecture was given to a whole room full of men in the business of maintenance, and some architects and construction company operators.

Barney, (man to man and once again ignoring the women becuase there aren't hardly any here   ) I agree that women should not be ignored or insulted when the subject is discussed in their behalf by only men in the biz.  But, if attitudes become chauvinistic or whatever, what can they expect?  Women should step up to be equals in the overall promulgation of golf course design, development, and remodelling.  They make up a large enough group of the golfing world that they should orient to clubs that orient to their skills and differences.  I don't believe that there should automatically be "men's clubs" and "women's clubs" segragated.  But, I don't see why some clubs can't orient towards one style of presentation while others offer a different level of challenge, presentation etc.  Some of the older mom and pop daily fees and old town clubs that are confined in space should take the challenge to remodel to specifically offer women design concepts as first priority in tee placements and hazard placements.  Have back moderately longer tees placed as a secondary thought.  The smaller % of women that are higher skilled and long enough to play back 6200-6400 and men who play there can go back and maybe experience that the course isn't quite right for them because it is actually oriented to average women handicaps and length.  So what.  The women have been putting up with all courses that don't fit them now and everything from tees to hazards are secondary concepts.  Reverse that and see if golf participation by women (which I heard was the largest growing segment) won't increase even more.

[cary lichtenstein]

John:

A lot of senior male golfers hit the ball 150-180 yards and arrow-straight, too ... it's good to allow for that type whichever gender is playing.

Tom,

I agree, but then wouldn't their wives hit is proportionally shorter.  I think when a female in her late 60's carries the ball that far she must have been an expert at one time and hardly casual.

Not if they have younger trophy wives

[Bill_McBride]

A short hitting woman like my wife ("take my wife" - Rodney D.) can play well from the forward tees on a course that doesn't have forced carries off the tee over 80 yards or cross bunkering in front of the green. So long as she can roll the ball on the green, she can play well, say 93-100.  As Cary will recall, she parred 15-16-17 at Pacific Dunes without hitting a ball over 150 yards.

I suspect her favorite hole might be the Redan at North Berwick because she hit a solid 3-wood that threaded the needle between the bunkers and ran down the green to 15' from a center pin.  

By contrast she was quite unhappy with the two very short par 3s at Painswick, where she couldn't carry up over the ramparts, and not too happy with Pennard where most fairways were sloped and her tee balls kept running into the thick rough.

Her biggest pet peeve is a set of forward tees that are obviously an afterthought - small, lumpy, sometimes just a patch of mowed fairway.  

[John Kavanaugh]

Bill,

Nice call...the redan makes perfect sense as a female favorite.

[Gary Slatter]

I just asked my wife, a casual female golfer, 58 years old, 11.0 index, played all over the world.
She does love Pinehurst first tee, all of Maidstone, Congressional, Shinnecock, Cinnamon Hill, TOC, Seaview, and her course to play forever - Prestwick.
The worst course for a woman, TPC Sawgrass, "stupid forward tees, a 170 yard straight drive is always in trouble".
The Medalist had a few holes where she could not carry the trouble - I once played in a Pro/Lady at a course in Toronto, the pros hit off the tee on #1 and NOT ONE LADY in the event could clear the hazard for the second shot. Lionhead was the name I think, terribly successful course.
in 2004 she played over 325 rounds at Cinnamon Hill in Jamaica (54 a day sometimes).
Yes I think architects should consider women when designing holes and forward tees. They need the yardage but also want the challenge left in when possible.

[John Kavanaugh]

In the world of golf course architecture it is a preponderance of men who design the course, build the course and critique the course.  

Until that changes we as men have a responsibility to discuss the subject.  I can't see where ignoring or insulting women at every opportunity does any good for golf course architecture or Golfclubatlas in general.

JakaB,

You missed the point.
That's not the issue.

The issue is: How can you, as a man, judge the answers ?
Your question asks: what are the best golf holes for the casual woman golfer ?

Shouldn't casual women golfers be answering that question, instead of having it answered for them ?

How can you or anyone else speak on behalf of the "casual women golfer ?

How can you or anyone else declare what's a good hole for the casual women golfer ?

I was curious as to how you would establish the context in which the responses would be judged.

Patrick,

I don't understand why you think it takes a woman to understand what is best for womens golf when men have critiqued the fashion, music and theater industries for years.  Women play a much more influencial role in each of those industries yet the sex of the designer or critic is rarely questioned.  Take the techinical design aspects of the redan which Bill's wife found to be an exciting concept in practice because of what I assume is a low ball flight with minimal spin.  Why would it take a woman to see that as a successful design feature for women when it is obvious to anyone of any sex that has played a redan.

[John Kavanaugh]

So what am I, on the "pay no mind" list, Barney?

Didn't I suggest #4 at NGLA right away on page 1?

I have no idea what the #4 at NGLA is...I'm starting to get the feeling it must be a redan.

[Tom_Doak]

Good guess, John.

I enjoyed watching the Curtis Cup in Bandon because it was interesting to see which holes were thought of much differently by those young women, than by the average man.  As I noted here back then, the short par-4 sixth hole seemed much easier for them than for the men, because they were never tempted to try to drive up near the green where all the trouble is -- they just hit driver and then wedge onto the green and made a lot of threes, whereas some of the best players I know have gotten killed at that hole.

I spoke with Amy Alcott recently about a piece I was writing on the tenth hole at Riviera, and I asked her if that hole wasn't so exciting for her, because she would never go for the front of the green.  She said maybe it wasn't exciting, but she loved the hole because you still had to execute on the conservative line, and of course a male opponent was susceptible to getting careless there.

I do realize that neither of these examples begins to represent the average female golfer; I was lectured plenty by Alice Dye about that in my younger years.  And I still remember trying to play Bethpage Black with my 60-year-old mom.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I don't understand why you think it takes a woman to understand what is best for womens golf when men have critiqued the fashion, music and theater industries for years.

JakaB,

Critiquing doesn't equate to telling someone what's best for them.  Your analogy is seriously flawed.

This may come as news to you, but women don't care about what men have to say about the way they dress.  They care about what women have to say about the way they dress.

As to Music and Theatre, I have no idea as to what you're talking about.

Women play a much more influencial role in each of those industries yet the sex of the designer or critic is rarely questioned.  

I don't believe they do, but, I still don't see the connection or the analogy.

And, have you ever seen a woman, out in public, wearing ANY of those runway outfits ?

No ?  Why ? Because they're not going to be told what to wear when they look hideous in those outfits

Take the techinical design aspects of the redan which Bill's wife found to be an exciting concept in practice because of what I assume is a low ball flight with minimal spin.  

Do you think that Bill's wife came to the tee of a Redan without any prior knowledge or influence with respect to the hole ?

Why would it take a woman to see that as a successful design feature for women when it is obvious to anyone of any sex that has played a redan.

Before we can address the question,
Let's establish the distance that she played the hole from first ?
Second, was it from an elevated, level or below green level tee ?

[Gary Slatter]

I believe the typical female golfer plays the game on an entirely different scale form the typical male, and generally placing some forward tees somewhere just won't make up the difference.

I believe that to enjoy the game a player should be able to get the ball on or beside the green in 2 strokes on a par 4. That will probably require approach shots of around 120 yards maximum for the typical female, but they shouldn't get the benefit of a 6500 square foot green from that distance.

Basically, my premise is that women need their own golf courses.

Toronto Ladies is a great course owned and operated by women since 1922.

[John Kavanaugh]

Good guess, John.

Thanks...I get the strangest compliments around here.  A guy could learn alot by a study of how Amy Alcott grew up playing Rivera and how her strategic thinking changed with maturity...if it ever did.  She can always find my number at the bottom of my posts.

[John Kavanaugh]

Patrick,

I don't know about you but if the women in my life would buy less Karl Lagerfeld and more Jacquelin Smith I could join another club.

[Shane Sullivan]

Coupla things:

I am a woman golfer - not sure what would make me casual but I play three times a week and my handicap is 13ish

I can not remember holes generally - so forgive this following generalisation.

OK - I like short par fours.  I hit my drive about 180 metres.  I like having to make a decision with my tee shot - I like the trouble to be in play - I like risk reward holes.

My favourite course was Barnbougle Dunes.  I played off the second set of tees (not the front tees where I assumed I would be playing from).  On almost every hole I had to think.  This meant that repeated play of the course saw my score come down as I learned from mistakes and managed to navigate the course better.

One of the problems I see with the placement of women's tees is that they are usually just placed forward of the other tees.  Sometimes changing the angle instead of the distance would improve the hole.  

Another things about the tee boxes is that if the mens tees are elevated, the women's tees generally aren't.  I'd like to play from elevated tees once in a while too!

I like it when I am taking the same (or similar) club on a par three and male palying partners with similar handicaps.  At the course I currently play at this is not the case (Huatang - Graham Marsh design in China) and the men have to take more club.

I like it when there is no forced carry up to the green (provided I have played smart golf from the tee).  Consequently I am fond of Pete Dye courses where this is possible.

I do not like long holes with small tough greens.  

Really, how much different does this make me from the casual male golfer?  Just asking.

Shane

[Jim Johnson]

John,

In research I have done for a possible golf course project, I have read several times where Alice Dye is quoted as saying that "the average female hits the same club only 80% as far as the average male" and "the average female golfer hits her driver 150 yards" and she says that "the average woman golfer is compelled to hit a fairway wood shot as often as twenty times in each round".

Honestly, if I had to hit my 3-wood that many times in a round, I think I'd quit the game. Well maybe not. But, her comments do emphasize the difference in the game between males and females. Oops, now I'm gonna hear about it.

It continues to amaze me how golf course architects can come up with a design which challenges all sorts of players, including "casual female golfers"..."casual male golfers"..."beginners"... "scratch golfers"..."high handicappers"...etc.

Think about it. A par-four hole for example. Try putting a fairway bunker in a location to challenge all of the above, and then a green which will challenge all of the above. And make everybody happy. Oops, sorry, a little o/t. Interesting topic though.

JJ

[John Kirk]

Nice job, Shane...your thoughtful and comprehensive post could be a thread killer.

My wife Cheryl has an index of about 21.  She doesn't remember individual holes either, unless she has played a course multiple times.  Our home course in Oregon, Pumpkin Ridge, works very well for our large women's group.  Virtually everyone walks the course, which has very gentle slopes.  Our 18th hole is a terrible finishing hole for women, since a 120-150 yard carry is required in the fairway to get over the wetlands and within 90 or so yards of the pin.  Nobody seems to mind, but that may just be familiarity and acceptance of the offending feature.  Cheryl has had good rounds ruined by hitting three balls into the junk on the last hole.

As a relatively new (8-10 years) golfer, Cheryl will sometimes eagerly tell me about her rounds.  It seems her greatest joy comes when she pars one of the longer holes by hitting the green with two or three solid shots.  Maybe the ideal hole for her is one where there's ample room to run a fairway wood onto the green in regulation.  So maybe a 350 yard par 4 or 440 yard par 5.

She also liked Ballyneal a lot.

Shane had already written about this topic on her website:

http://www.shane-sullivan.com/golf/mygolfopinion.html

[Bill_McBride]

I don't understand why you think it takes a woman to understand what is best for womens golf when men have critiqued the fashion, music and theater industries for years.

Take the techinical design aspects of the redan which Bill's wife found to be an exciting concept in practice because of what I assume is a low ball flight with minimal spin.  

Do you think that Bill's wife came to the tee of a Redan without any prior knowledge or influence with respect to the hole ?

Why would it take a woman to see that as a successful design feature for women when it is obvious to anyone of any sex that has played a redan.

Before we can address the question,
Let's establish the distance that she played the hole from first ?
Second, was it from an elevated, level or below green level tee ?

She played from the forward tee which I think was about 145 yards.  The tee was at the same level as the yellow tee, which was set at about 170 yards.  She hit 3-wood along the ground.  I hit 6-iron onto the front (top right) of the green.  We both finished about 15' from the hole.

You may rest assured that she had been thoroughly briefed about the characteristics and alternate strategies for playing that Redan!  

She and the other woman in our foursome really did love North Berwick West Links for its fast fairways, good caddies and quirky inbound holes.

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