Three questions about Angels Crossing

[Chris Cupit]

Jim,

After reading the course rating post, I went and read about Angels Crossing under "My Home Course".  It looks beautiful and I really enjoyed the architects comments and the principles behind your course.

I did have a few questions though:

1.  Hole twelve is a 258 yard redan.  At that length does it play the way redans are "supposed" to.  I have never played your course and couldn't discern from the pictures if the hole played significantly downhill or how steep the back right of the green is--can you "sling" your tee shot off the bank to get it back to the left hole location?  The only really long redan I've played is Black Creek's reverse redan and it was so long that instead of aiming for any particular area, most of us in the group just aimed at the middle of the green and hoped for a very solid shot.  (I believe that hole at Black Creek had OB left so aiming left seemed foolhardy).

2.  Hole 16  173-78 yard par three inspirerd by 16 at Cypress Point.  While I am familiar with 16 at Cypress I've never played there but I am confused!  What am I missing as even without playing either course, I do not see many (any) similarities between those two 16th holes.

Again, I think the course looks (and I am sure plays) great.  Best of luck with it.

[Jim Thompson]

Chris.

I'll try to answer your three questions, but must admit I only see two.  If this is a trick then, you got me.

Our 12th hole is a pretty good Redan but its playability and demands on the player changes dramatically from tee to tee requiring more shot shaping as the player moves back.  One thing you can’t get from the drawings is that the hole predominately plays down the prevailing wind pattern.  There is plenty of drop, flattened out by the camera, about 5 feet from front right to back left, in the green and even a rear slot to continue the left throw.  The green had the highest rate of consistent slope on the course as well.  From the middle tees the player can choose between trying to trickle in a high fade or use the kicker to run one across the green, when the pin is right the approaching slope isn’t a bad play either.  From the tips it is requires most player to play the club they don’t have in their bag.  A nice draw on a two iron would get you to a back left pin or a choked down 5 wood or you can, as I usually try to do, run a toey three wood up the approach slot.   A shot to the middle of the green will most times end up off the back with today’s ball choices.  I can tell you that the green holds a T Pro90 from a hickory club pretty well though.  Regardless par is a very good score on this hole and it has to be taken in the context of the holes that precede and follow it.  Number 11 is a pretty solid birdie chance regardless of pin, unless you get greedy and try to cut the corner or drive the green, and thirteen is a par 5 that can give an eagle chance if the pin is in the right third.

As for 16 it was inspired by 15 at Cypress, we added the flare on the front left to add some pinable space but the bunkering, canting, and general idea came from a drawing we saw.  That said we have no copy cat or replica holes but have always tried to help people understand how we got to the dance so to speak.  I’m sure anyone who has been to Royal St. Georges will take issue with the 10th as they look nothing alike but the playability, options and strategies were taken from that hole.

Hope that helps.

Cheers!

JT

[Andy Troeger]

Jim,
  Wait...you're NOT supposed to aim at the pin on #11 and swing as hard as you can? Maybe that's why I've ended up in that darn bunker...

  Actually...I was right of the bunker the last time. That's not the worst place in the world either!

 

[RJ_Daley]

Not to mention about 11, that turbo boast slope in the pre-LZ to give you a nice run down at towards the green for a nippy little pitch. I was pleased to hit one round in right of bunker right and have a fair enough shot at green, once dead in middle having benefited from the turbo boast, and once further left with slightly longer yet still short iron approach.  Oh, and one through the FW not quite into the marshy area, but in rough.

Having just played a real classic redan at Yeaman's Hall, I'd have to say Jim's is on steroids in length demands off the tee.  Yet it is also much larger in SQ FT.  I'm not sure, but I think I played it up tees somewhere around 215 and hit 3 wood, 5 wood, 3 iron on my attempts.  I can't control any club to a real specific LZ at that length.  I'm in the hit it and hope category.  But, if I could, I'd hit a flat iron, hybrid, or as Jim said, some sort of toey 3-4wood at the front kicker, which does operate correctly as far as I could tell.  but, I myself did not hit the ideal shots each time I tried it.  I put a couple in the fronting bunkers.  

It would be a nice place to bring a shag bag and practice the ideal shot.  I think with practice, there would be a repeatable ideal after selecting the correct tee.  Due to the size of the green, I don't see why a good player of decent length wouldn't have the choice to fly something higher into the green rather than play the ground bound.

[plabatt]

Chris
What photos and drawings do not show is the depth of the bunkers.  I mean they are deep, in many cases you are lucky to see the top of the flag.

About 12, I posted a 7, and was very happy.  My advice is to over club and chip back onto the putting surface.  

Angels Crossing is a course that must be play many times to learn its subtleties.  And, I would be understating the fact the greens have movement.  The Medinah Greens Committee would benefit from a field trip to Angels Crossing.

Without a doubt, Angels Crossing is the best golf value in Michigan.

Petey

[Chris Cupit]

Thanks, that helps alot.  

Jim,

Here's my third question--I have been looking for some kind of unique tee box that will indicate the hole, par and yards.  I like the way alot of clubs have done it overseas.  There is a squareish box, square at the bottom and tapering to a smaller square up top.  The whole thing is maybe 18-24 inches tall.  Sometimes they sit directly on the ground and sometimes they have "legs" that hold them a few feet off the ground.  I thought I noticed that on one of your tee boxes and wondereed if you made your own or purchased them somewhere.

Thanks again for the descriptions--the course looks fantastic.

[Jim Thompson]

Chris,

I've had the chance to do it a couple of ways.  I've done the 10 foot cedar post, routed out and painted, but that led to either stone around the base that looked bad after a few mows or a bunch of hand work.  We decided to go with that black plastic composite post, no painting or maint.,  you saw in the pics.  They make them with a full list of items but at AC we went with just the hole number on two sides to keep it clean.  One nice feature is that they have spikes in the bottom and can be moved and replaced during mowing, no hand work.  Here's a link to our supplier http://www.glgcp.com/  the composite items are great.  Here's a link to their pdf catalog with the item you are referencing http://www.glgcp.com/home/GLG-MAS06-108-115.pdf

JT

Edit- The guy you want to talk there is Mark Hammer

[Jim Thompson]

RJ,

Kevin hits 4 and 5 irons from the tips.  3, if the wind is out of the east. That's why we made it that yardage, 'cause these kids all got game.  The tricky part is making them shape it by moving the tee left a bit with the new balls.  Kev can do it, but not many others can.

Cheers!

JT

[Brad Klein]

Yikes, we're debating an inland real estate course with a waterless par-3 hole inspired by the 15th at Cypress Point. (By the way, please note inspired by the 16th at Cypress Point! -- the owner got this wrong in his original post, then corrected it, but the opening question is still wrong about this.) In any case, I think this is taking neo-classicism beyond the pale.

Names and inspirations aside, it looks like an interesting place and I look forward to playing it. But there's a point at which the "inspired by" gets in the way of just building and presenting sound golf holes.

[Jim Thompson]

Chris,

There is a thread on here somewhere that has a ton of pics of Brit styled hole boxes.  maybe one of the search experts here can remember the title and post a link for you.

JT

[Jim Thompson]

Brad,

Nice pick up  I just checked and that tyop has been around for four years.  Funny how you don't think about stuff like that when you just recheck it.  You should be an editor or something when you grow up.  You'd be good at it.

JT

Edit - we also used to say that we made it short enough for one GCAer to actually go for it of the tee, but figured that joke got old after a bit.

[Jim Thompson]

Brad,

When I was writing my "My Home Course" I sent the first draft out to a number of GCAers, most of whom came back with the same comment.  Where did you get the idea for that and that and that?  Just trying to give the people what they want, if you know what I mean.  At that time, the CBM concept of compiling the best 18 known ideas that fit a property and using them was pretty rare.  Now some guy out in Oregon is thinking of doing the same thing and folks think an awful lot of him.  I never met a Chef who didn't steal recipes, but I haven't met a hell of a lot of them who'll admit it either.  Isn't that what much of modern golf design has become?  The same dishes served over and over but on different sized or colored plates and with new garnish?

Cheers!

JT

[Chris Cupit]

Thank goodness it was 15 and not 16!  I'm new and didn't want to make an ass of myself if I was missing something.  Anyway, thanks for the help with the tee boxes.

[Jim Thompson]

Chris,

Brian Gracely was kind enough to email me this photo in hopes that it would help you.


I hope someone can remember some of the items or keywords for that old thread.  The pics had some great ideas.

Good luck!

JT

[Chris Cupit]

Thank you-that's exactly what I was looking for.

[JJShanley]

I thought it best to add my thoughts to an existing thread, but I wanted to bring attention to this fantastic facility. 


I played here a week past Monday, as a treat for having finished a chapter of my dissertation.  I had planned on getting in two games, but the weather put paid to that after 15 holes of round one.  I'll get back once I return to the U.S. in late-July after my trip to the U.K. 


Friendly staff, a cracking hamburger, and what looked like a decent tap collection in the bar.  The course provided some of the most fun I've had on a golf course since I played Camargo last July.  I say that as someone who enjoys playing Warren at Notre Dame each week, regardless of my score.


Although the course had had a wet spring and early-summer, including a deluge the day before, it drained well.  I would use the excellent practice tee daily if I lived locally. 


I think the quality of the design hit me on the par-5 4th, which resembled a dog-leg left version of Muirfield's 9th.  The Biarritz and Redan holes played well.  Although walkable it had at least three significant gaps between holes (3-4; 8-9). 


I look forward to playing it in dryer conditions later this summer.


Special mention to Yogi's restaurant, where I enjoyed a breakfast burrito before I teed off (although I've had better coffee.)