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James Boon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Listed / protected status for significant courses?
« on: June 06, 2009, 06:18:25 AM »
While reading the Toronto GC Renovation thread, something occurred to me… As an architect (of buildings) here in the UK, we have buildings that are “Listed”. These are buildings considered of local, national or international significance and this status allows a degree of protection for these buildings. A listed building can be changed, but it has to go through a series of approvals first, by the experts at English Heritage. Here is the website for a bit more info:
http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/server/show/nav.1373

Would this work for golf courses? What do you all think?

Cheers,

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Dean Paolucci

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Listed / protected status for significant courses?
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2009, 07:04:16 AM »
James - What a wonderful idea.  Courses deemed to have a significance could be earmarked for a trust if they were to fall into economic hardship and were looking to be sold, much like the farmland preservation trust.  While a course is viable no restrictions would be imposed however, if the course was to be put up for sale it would be purchased by the trust and become a ward so to speak.  Now all we have to do is come up with the funding for the trust.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2009, 03:16:01 PM by Dean Paolucci »
"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."  --  Mark Twain

Phil_the_Author

Re: Listed / protected status for significant courses?
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2009, 09:49:20 AM »
James,

So you are suggesting that a group of individuals who have banded together and own a significant golf course of great important historical importance get permission from a committee of non-members, or even worse, from a public or governmental agency, none of which have ownership or playing privileges or rights?

Think of it this way, how would you feel if someone came to you and told you that you could not renovate the home you've enjoyed your entire life because they considered it historically significant? Especially when it wasn't considered that when you bought it?

It is a nice idea but, to my mind anyway, is an example of "Logistics being the assasins of ideas..." as the author wrote.

Ian Andrew

Re: Listed / protected status for significant courses?
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2009, 11:11:32 AM »
James,

This came up before and I’ll answer it the exact same way to make my point.

We bought an Arts and Crafts style house on a very historical street when we moved to Brantford. Almost every house on the street has a historic designation - but ours isn’t because it was a B&B. Yes - ours is worthy - and gets displayed in the local historical archives as having architectural significance. Ironically we have one of the only houses without any additions or alterations to the outside – and we plan to keep the house pristine in this regards.

But we have no plans to register our house – because we wouldn’t want to put conditions on the house that don’t exist now. Who knows what the future will bring and we would rather have the flexibility to deal with something if it came up. I expect 20 years from not the house is exactly the same – but in better shape as we slowly strip down and repaint some of the features that have too many coasts of paint now.

I wouldn’t expect a single club to participate voluntarily and I think a few would fight this in court – and win. I’m not happy when clubs disregard their history – but that will always be their right. And it should be there right.

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Listed / protected status for significant courses?
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2009, 02:18:15 PM »
   This begs the question: are golf courses museums or places to play golf?  All you preservationists would prefer that they be museums, especially if the course wasn't your principle place to play.  Who are you to say that a course shouldn't be changed?  Who says Merion should stay at 6,400 yards?  Who says Pebble can't build a new 5th?  Who says Pine Valley can't add a green at #8, or new tees everywhere?  The fact is, you'd all be ok with making changes on any course, as long as you approved of them.  Sorry.  No go.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Listed / protected status for significant courses?
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2009, 03:03:46 PM »
James,

So you are suggesting that a group of individuals who have banded together and own a significant golf course of great important historical importance get permission from a committee of non-members, or even worse, from a public or governmental agency, none of which have ownership or playing privileges or rights?

Think of it this way, how would you feel if someone came to you and told you that you could not renovate the home you've enjoyed your entire life because they considered it historically significant? Especially when it wasn't considered that when you bought it?

It is a nice idea but, to my mind anyway, is an example of "Logistics being the assasins of ideas..." as the author wrote.
That's exactly how it works for listed buildings in the UK and yes, with a few niggles, it works.  We have no problem with the idea that history should be preserved and I see no reason why we couldn't extend the same principle to golf courses.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

James Boon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Listed / protected status for significant courses? New
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2009, 04:31:37 AM »
Interesting reponses so far,

Ian, I couldn't find any previous discussions in a search, but maybe I was'nt looking very well. I would be interested to read any thread where this has been discussed before?

I think one of the key points of the Listing sytem in this country for buildings is that it doesn't stop alterations and work from being carried out, it just stops what could be considered innapropriate work from taking place or damaging the reasons that the building was considered significant in the first place. As far as buildings are concerned I work with this system on a regular basis so I know what a pain it can be, but without it I think a great many fantastic works of architecture would have been lost or damaged in the so called name of progress, or maybe even because some nieve owners aren't aware of what they have? I can also add that the people I know who own a listed house or property don't see it as a hinderence (well not all the time) but rather as a status symbol to be proud of...

So how could a system for golf courses work? Perhaps a group could be set up, attached to the R&A perhaps, made up of golf course architects and historians, or perhaps even some of us from on here? Lets call this group Links Heritage (LH) just for this discussion? They could choose a selection of courses in an area like here in the UK which are fine examples of Colt, MacKenzie or Fowlers work say, and then these courses could be given listed status. Therefore if a course decided to change a few bunkers, add a few tees, or even carry out major changes, the architects of that work would submit their proposals to LH who would be able to comment upon or approve these proposals. Now this would be a fairly new system so suddenly being able to tell these courses what they can or cant do would be tricky, hence it may be on an advisory position to start with? But if someone was to want to make a handful of changes to a Colt course, they would not only be able to engage an architect to prepare proposals (probably someone who admires Colt's work), but they would also be able to run these past a group of people who are experts on Colt first (perhaps LH would consult with or be connected to the Colt Association?)

One problem with the listing system for buildings is that as they stand at the time of listing is considered how they should be, even if some poor changes have taken places in the past. If this wasn't adopted for the golf courses, then it would be an opportunity for a listed course to call in an architect to look at renovation proposals?

Another factor to consider is if a course is listed as a fine example of say James Braid's work, should a new green built say to extend a hole that has got shorter than originally intended, be in the style of a James Braid green, or should it be made clear that this is a new green, but in a style sympathetic to the original designer?

I'm still interested in your thoughts on this? As mark says, we have a system that works for buildings here in the UK so why couldnt it be applied to golf courses? I'd also be interested in any examples of how listing or protected status works for buildings in other countries like Australia or the US?

Cheers,

James
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 05:19:17 AM by James Boon »
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Rich Goodale

Re: Listed / protected status for significant courses?
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2009, 08:05:03 AM »
James

Oakmont CC is designated a "National Historic Landmark" in the US.  I do not think this designation carries any golf course development restrictions, however.  As to previous discussions on this topic, type "SPAB" in the crack GCA search engine, and you will find a number of them.

Mark

I see a lot of problems in having some sort of quango having control over golf course development, no matter how historic the course might be, the first being practicailty, the second being who would administer such a scheme?  We (respresenting probably the six sigma portion of the bell curve of GCA anoraks) can't even agree on this site which features (if any) should be preseved on the finest and most hisorical of courses.  I say, leave well enough alone.

Rich

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Listed / protected status for significant courses?
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2009, 10:00:09 AM »
James,

So you are suggesting that a group of individuals who have banded together and own a significant golf course of great important historical importance get permission from a committee of non-members, or even worse, from a public or governmental agency, none of which have ownership or playing privileges or rights?

Think of it this way, how would you feel if someone came to you and told you that you could not renovate the home you've enjoyed your entire life because they considered it historically significant? Especially when it wasn't considered that when you bought it?

It is a nice idea but, to my mind anyway, is an example of "Logistics being the assasins of ideas..." as the author wrote.

Philip,

This happens in Carmel, California, with some frequency and we are not talking about stately mansions either.

Bob

Philip

James Boon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Listed / protected status for significant courses?
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2009, 10:22:42 AM »
James

Oakmont CC is designated a "National Historic Landmark" in the US.  I do not think this designation carries any golf course development restrictions, however.  As to previous discussions on this topic, type "SPAB" in the crack GCA search engine, and you will find a number of them.

Rich

Rich,

Thanks for the pointer on the search. I'm familar with the SPAB but wouldn't have thought to use it in the search. I found these previous discussions, which will make for some interesting bedtime reading no doubt...

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,14254.0/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,22652.0/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,25190.70/

Cheers,

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Ian Andrew

Re: Listed / protected status for significant courses?
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2009, 03:49:15 PM »
the architects of that work would submit their proposals to LH who would be able to comment upon or approve these proposals.
I restore courses for a living - and I don't think I'm qualified to make those decisions.

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