New Urbanism and The Old Course's 18th Hole

[Mike Hendren]

In the thread on the 18th hole at The Old Course, Tom Doak hints that he would welcome the opportunity to have a course start and finish in the middle of town.  Given the trends in new urbanism, why hasn't someone done this?  

Imagine a nice two-story work/live unit on a narrow lane tight against the 18th hole.  

Mike

[Adrian_Stiff]

In the thread on the 18th hole at The Old Course, Tom Doak hints that he would welcome the opportunity to have a course start and finish in the middle of town.  Given the trends in new urbanism, why hasn't someone done this?  

Mike

I have a project in Bulgaria where we could do this, but I fear i may get sued.

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:

Safety concerns are the primary excuse.  Lack of vision is the real answer.  But most "golf community" projects are limited to single-family homes, not many are the centerpiece of new towns.

The new course at Bandon Dunes will start and finish at a new "village" just north of the practice facility ... I am envisioning it like North Berwick but certainly the village will be much smaller and I doubt it will have the same effect.

[Mike Hendren]

Adrian,

Our favorite cheer at the high school football game on 4th down and short is:  "GOFORIT - Go for it, go for it"  

Tom & Adrian,

One of my favorite golf momentos is my little insurance policy that is included in the green fee at North Berwick's West Links.  

Tom,

Such a project would require vision and tremendous capital, but the real estate component could be economically feasible.  Housing trends are moving away from the large, detached, single-family homes (tract mansions) toward smaller, more intimate and well appointed living spaces. The key would be balancing the affordability of land with the need to be proximate to population density and jobs.    

How wonderful would it be to own and operate a coffee shop on the first floor with your golf bag stashed behind the counter and have a nice cozy flat upstairs?  

This has got to be doable.  Go find an imagineer.

Mike

[Gary Slatter]

In 2001 we were in a pub in London somewhere and at 10:00 pm a group of "golfers" were gathering to play to another Pub over a mile away.  It was the seond leg of a home and away comp.  Each contestant had one club and a tennis ball covered with duct-type tape. Looked like fun, does that count as urban golf? Did it catch on?

By the way we hosted a radio show from Atlanta and urban did not refer to downtown.  You were "urban" or you weren't and they told me I wouldn't qualify no matter where I lived.

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:  I agree with your sentiment.  

However, if the designer of North Berwick was alive today, that little scrip of insurnace they include in the green fee would NOT cover him, unless he got the client to take all the responsibility and pay for the insurance as part of his original contract.  If you were the client, would you do that for Adrian?

[Mike Hendren]

Gary,

This is not about metrosexuality, not that there's anything wrong with that.

Mike
Hillbilly Tour Card Holder And Membership Director

[Mike Hendren]

Mike:  I agree with your sentiment.  

However, if the designer of North Berwick was alive today, that little scrip of insurnace they include in the green fee would NOT cover him, unless he got the client to take all the responsibility and pay for the insurance as part of his original contract.  If you were the client, would you do that for Adrian?

Tom,

I'm sure you're quite right, but a quick call to Shivas (I mean Dave Schmidt, Barney) or Shel Solow could solve this issue in less than an hour, though they'll likely bill you for the full 60 minutes.

Also, do you think the insurance premium would be lower if the OB/Housing was on the left coming home?

I'm just thinking the next frontier might not be in the American plains, but rather right smack downtown - the gentrification of golf course architecture in America.  

I REALLY BELIEVE THIS.

Mike

[Adrian_Stiff]

I do not know what the H & S issues are like in the US, but here they are becoming very difficult here. I was called in by one golf club to give them some advice on how they could improve one of their holes from a safety point of view, a very minor road and stable bounded this hole, I'd say some 30 yards from the edge of the fairway, at maybe 150-250 from the tee and on the right. Prime Target obviously. They already had a fence some 10 metres high, I could not give them the nice advice they wanted. Their insurance company was planning to withdraw it had paid out 3 times. What if this happened at St Andrews, in the day and age of no win no fee, I guess nos 1 & 18 would have to go, horrible thought.

[RJ_Daley]

Mike, start with a remodel of Peter Jans National!  And, when is the next playing of the reverse course?

Move the Lincoln park zoo to a more modern facility outskirts and build the urban course there!

[Bill_McBride]

Mike:

Safety concerns are the primary excuse.  Lack of vision is the real answer.  But most "golf community" projects are limited to single-family homes, not many are the centerpiece of new towns.

The new course at Bandon Dunes will start and finish at a new "village" just north of the practice facility ... I am envisioning it like North Berwick but certainly the village will be much smaller and I doubt it will have the same effect.

Please arrange to have the clubhouse bar on the second floor with a great view of the driveable 18th hole!  

[Mike_Young]

A couple of years ago we did a routing for a project in Franklin TN where the course began and ended on a small town square with the proshop in one of the retail buildings there.....at one time Gil Hanse was to do the project and then was told it was an Art Hills project....think it is called Westhaven and have no idea if it happened or not.
Mike

[Tim Gavrich]

The clubhouse of the Country Club of Farmington (CT) is situation in a fairly busy part of town.

Don't many city courses qualify?  Dare I say, the Peter Jans course; the Reverse Jans???

[Tim Bert]

Mike,

They should have done this at McKay's Mill in the little village center.  They've already crammed everything in there so tight that they couldn't afford to squeeze any golf course in there other than a single hole leading to and from the center.  The fairways on the holes would need to be about half the width of TOC during the Open, but that would only add to the charm.

Maybe the course could run out to the Nissan construction and back.

[Mike_Young]

I think   www.westhaventn.com  will show one.....

[Mike Hendren]

Mike,

Westhaven is a tremendous residential success and they are in the process of commencing development of the commercial town center.  The golf course has be routed on the opposite end of the project, however.  Construction has not started.

I don't know the story on how they switched from Hanse to Art Hills but Hills has been on site for a kiss and tickle and is now the architect of record.

This is precisely the project I had in mind when I started the thread.

Mike

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Mike I know of two projects in Louisiana that incorprated New Urbanism and Golf. Both had the course begin and end in town. Both projects are on hold as per results of market studies. I personally loved them conceptually and think this use of this use of green space is a great idea. Bogie, under orders from sheriff/fuzz JK I am using your traditional name.

[paul cowley]

I've done two master plans where golf and the clubhouse where part of a town commons.....one had the clubhouse anchoring a very large park like greenspace that served as the practice range, but could also double as a special events open space, all surrounded with live/work units and apartments...and the golf played out the back.
Another had a par three ninth hole finishing in a park surrounded by multi/family housing.

Unfortunately both of these projects failed to get aloft.....maybe adding a fort might have made a difference .

Safety issues can be accommodated by good space planning.

TomD....the North Berwick Village at Bandon is a splendid idea, especially if it can face and have some long views to the west....that, along with a few pints, would be most pleasant!

[TEPaul]

"However, if the designer of North Berwick was alive today, that little scrip of insurnace they include in the green fee would NOT cover him,"

TomD:

That little insurance fee you're supposed to buy at the starter's shed at North Berwick is one of the funniest things I've ever seen in golf.

My recollection is that the insurance fee was optional and I think I forewent paying it.

I don't know if the guy I was playing with, Craig Ammerman, forewent the fee too but he probably should've paid it because he managed to hit Mrs Majors (a quite pretty lady in the group in front of us) in her very attractive ass two or maybe even three times.

Ironically that led to a friendship that is sure to endure. Is that some kind of Scottish thing with the ladies over there---eg hit them in their ass a few times with a golf ball and they become your lifelong friend?

If so, I think it's very cute.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Sad to say something else may have gone.

Played the west links twice this summer and no mention of an insurance toll.