The rating game, a personal story...

[Tom_Doak]

Jim:  Thanks for sharing your perspective, I do think it's appreciated and it's nice because Mike Keiser and other developers do not hang out here.  Sure, it's also self-promotion of a sort, but so is my participation, and come to think of it pretty much everybody else in the forum ... we are all trying to get to the head of the class.

What's more, you teed me up perfectly for my rant!

[Jim Thompson]

Jim:  Thanks for sharing your perspective, I do think it's appreciated and it's nice because Mike Keiser and other developers do not hang out here.  Sure, it's also self-promotion of a sort, but so is my participation, and come to think of it pretty much everybody else in the forum ... we are all trying to get to the head of the class.

What's more, you teed me up perfectly for my rant!

Be careful or we’ll be accused of colluding.  

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

I comp who I want to comp and the little card in the billfold has very little to do with it.  It's not a payoff, you don't get a gift when you come to visit, the only exception being one among us who I consider to be a very good friend and he's not a rater.  That said, my comments regarding Paul' fee comment centered more around the effect that the greens fee has as a drawing factor and how that intreplays with our market.

Jim,

I'm confused...won't a less expensive green fee draw more golfers than an expensive one...

[Bob_Huntley]

Jim,

Have you ever had a rater who has INSISTED on paying the full tariff and what magazine did he represent?

Bob

[Jim Thompson]

John,

Yes a less expensive green fee draws more players.  It does however force you to deal with "it can't be that good, the greens fee is only x syndrome."  And that is a real thing that we deal with every single day!  I relate it to the snobbery that goes along with some single malt scotch drinkers who couldn't tell the difference between the smokey tones of say a Cragenmore vs the salty bite of an Islay.  I went through this once with the Ravines up in Saugatuck and I can't tell you how many people played because they wanted to go back and tell someone how much they paid to play.  Think lift ticket syndrome with skiers.  A current example might be the folks who went up to Erin Hills vs coming over to visit AC.  I think the green fee has some, not all, but some effect on the decision making.  Hope that helps.

JT

[Jim Thompson]

Bob,

I have never had a rater insist to pay in the shop.  I have had a couple of GCA friends who I had to almost force to be my guests and I believe all three of them are GW raters.  I have also had situations where we've had a guy come into the shop and start waving his rater card around like a Willy Wonka golden ticket, from both publications, and unbeknownst to them they got the full rate as I gave the counter staff the freeze signal. I don't think the guy even knew who I was.  I probably looked like one of Spackler's kin to them as I stood in the foyer.  I don't have any problem with comping a rater, unless they make an ass of themselves or the publication they represent.  I do get a bit ruffled when they start out with the old, "I'm a rater and I'll be bring out a foursome what can you do for me routine."  The standard procedure should be to offer to pay and let the course take care of you and/or your guests at their discretion.  Everything is ok provided we, those in the business, feel like we're giving rather than them taking.  Hope that makes sense.

Cheers!

JT

[John Kavanaugh]

A current example might be the folks who went up to Erin Hills vs coming over to visit AC.

Jim,

I don't know if this will ease the pain of the process but the owner of Erin Hills is going to wish "those guys" went to AC instead too...

[Craig Sweet]

Golf course ratings are a ridiculous waste of time in my opinion....what should matter is do people play the course, and do they have fun...end of story....oh, and it would help if ALL golf courses were affordable (under $100 to play)and open to the public.

[John Kavanaugh]

Golf course ratings are a ridiculous waste of time in my opinion....what should matter is do people play the course, and do they have fun...end of story....oh, and it would help if ALL golf courses were affordable (under $100 to play)and open to the public.

Craig,

I think ratings and raters and private courses closed to the public are all great and valuable things.  I think we could both be happy if raters had term limits of let's say 2 years.  That way we could get a better scope of opinion on the great courses in the world because of more rater turnover and eventually every serious golfer in the country would have a shot at being a rater and playing free (affordable with travel) golf at the private courses throughout the country for a short period of time... (Paul Thomas is proof that you can hit them all in 2 years or less) It's a win/win situation.  Wadda ya think.

I could settle for a 10 year term limit even though 6 might be perfect.

[Geoffrey Childs]

A current example might be the folks who went up to Erin Hills vs coming over to visit AC.

Jim,

I don't know if this will ease the pain of the process but the owner of Erin Hills is going to wish "those guys" went to AC instead too...

John

I went out of my way to play Erin Hills.  I believe I paid $153 for the pleasure and I or Noel never thought of asking to be comped. I don't think you can find much negative in my posts  on EH either.  Shivas raves about the place.

Jim

Can you can tell me how a drive from a two day visit in Chicago up to Kohler would have allowed me to play Angels Crossing rather then Erin Hills?  I will make it a point to visit next time I am in Michigan.

[John Kavanaugh]

Geoffrey,

I know the difference between a lack of negativity and buzz...

[Craig Sweet]

John, what is so "valuable" about course ratings? What is so "valuable" about having archetecturally great golf courses sequestered behind locked gates?

[Joe Hancock]

There has always been significant cost and value in all the best that life has to offer. It can cause one to be bitter when you can't afford to get past the gates.....

Ratings are a part of being in the business....any business to some extent. It has to do with drawing in more customers than what you might normally be able to do if you only rely on the locals.

Next time you order course equipment, try to avoid buying the best, or buying from the best....everything has a rating....

Joe

[Geoffrey Childs]

Geoffrey,

I know the difference between a lack of negativity and buzz...

John

If they wanted "buzz" they should have hired the marketing company that Reynolds Plantation employs. I hardly think they are counting on buzz from GCA to keep them on public golfers radar.

[Tom_Doak]

Craig:

There are a bunch of courses that simply would not exist if they had to live by your rules of public access and greens fees under $100.  Of course, if a tree falls in the forest and you don't hear it, I guess it doesn't make a sound for you.

[John Kavanaugh]

Geoffrey,

I wish the best for Erin Hills as Dany Fry is one of the really great guys in the business.  I'm talking about the rustic push to get Erin Hills highly placed on the Golfweek list...It just isn't here.  

[Geoffrey Childs]

Geoffrey,

I wish the best for Erin Hills as Dany Fry is one of the really great guys in the business.  I'm talking about the rustic push to get Erin Hills highly placed on the Golfweek list...It just isn't here.  

John

The "buzz" about the place is why I went to see it. Could you tell me and everyone here exactly what "the rustic push to get Erin Hills highly placed on the Golfweek list" is so I can evaluate my real reason for playing there?

[Mike_Sweeney]

John, what is so "valuable" about course ratings? What is so "valuable" about having archetecturally great golf courses sequestered behind locked gates?

Craig,

The Golf Digest list fascinated me since I first got to play Merion. Yes, today I have a different view, but it was my personal start.

There is no way that Sebonack, Friars Head or Kelly Moran's more resonably priced Laurel Links get built on Long Island with public access for under $100. Should they not get built? The alternative is probably more houses on an island that is too congested.

If Shinnecock, National and others were open to the public, wouldn't that hurt the public course owner?

People always make the UK comparison, but for Scotland's economy tourism, is a big driver and golf is a big piece of that. If the golf clubs go private, the inns and restaurants take a big hit and then the innkeepers and restarant owners can afford a golf membership.

I like to play nice/great courses with nice/great architecture. I have not played a full 18 holes at Bethpage Black since the renovation. I never can get a tee time early enough to finish. It is public access for under $100. My wife would prefer that I pay more and not sleep in a car and leave the house for 18 hours to play golf. I love BB, and would really like to play it more often. If they raised the rates, which I am not suggesting, it would fit my family schedule better.

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

Golf course ratings are a ridiculous waste of time in my opinion....what should matter is do people play the course, and do they have fun...end of story....oh, and it would help if ALL golf courses were affordable (under $100 to play)and open to the public.

I think Craig has it pretty close.
The problem with raters in general is that they seem to choose courses that have cost a lot to build, making them unaffordable for 90% of golfers. A recipe for bankruptcy!
There are several courses here in Ontario that were chosen as best new or runner up to best new and went into receivership. Clublink owns several of them now.
What should be a high priority for admission to best new or top 100 etc. etc. is the golf course's ROI. (return on investment)
Not including housing.

[Jim Thompson]

Geoff,

It was just an example for John relative to the pricing situation in west Michigan, not a left hander thrown at you or anyone else on the board.  I know its just human nature to go there, but that's not what I meant.  It certainly isn't meant as a slap at Erin Hills either.  The regular play book does say to maximize revenues based on being new, but in this neck of the woods when you have to lower rates after the "newness" wears off, people staring asking what's wrong and you end up losing business and members.  As such, we raise our rates, if we do over 25,000 18hole equivs a year to level out.  It's different here and that's why I constantly harp that each course exists in a unique economic environment and should be managed as such.  The standard golf biz rules should be taken as guidelines at best.  In the end you gotta do what's best for your unique situation.

Cheers!

JT

[Jim Thompson]

Mike,

Course ratings probably don't mean as much to privates as they do publics.  In the daily fee model every round over number x is profit.  When I used to get asked about how golf worked I told folks that on the first round of the year you lose about $800,000 after that your margin gets a little better.  That's why every round that that piece of press gets you or helps you to draw players outside of your 40 minute drive time radius is soooo important.  In daily fee, in moderate population density areas you need all the help you can get.  Reading the FAQs on my site might help you to get a better flavor for the playing field we face.

Cheers!

JT

[John Kavanaugh]

Geoffrey,

I wish the best for Erin Hills as Dany Fry is one of the really great guys in the business.  I'm talking about the rustic push to get Erin Hills highly placed on the Golfweek list...It just isn't here.  

John

The "buzz" about the place is why I went to see it. Could you tell me and everyone here exactly what "the rustic push to get Erin Hills highly placed on the Golfweek list" is so I can evaluate my real reason for playing there?

Geoffrey,

I only know or refer to the buzz on Golfclubatlas..I seriously doubt that you went to play Erin Hills because of what Paul Richards said.  The rustic push is a term I coined that deals with the push on Golfclubatlas a couple of years ago that got Rustic Canyon onto your list...It was an undeniable phenom that I am not seeing with Erin Hills or for that matter Stone Eagle....some courses get it and some don't.  I do believe both Erin Hills and Stone Eagle will make the list but not as high if they had the champions they need...or buzz if you want to call it that.  I hope I'm wrong as I have friends at both places..

[Geoffrey Childs]

Ahh - rustic push = Rustic Canyon

You make it seem like it is a fact that some love for Rustic Canyon on GCA was the reason for its placement on the GW Modern Top 100 list.

It may have had "some" influence but there are what some 300 or so GW raters.  How many tune in here on GCA?  What % of the votes come from here on GCA?  Didn't some on here such as Shivas and Dave Wigler have less then kind words for RC?

Was there an article in Sports Illustrated on Gil and Rustic Canyon?  Might SI cause more of a "buzz" then a few raters posts on GCA?

I'm not saying you are entirely wrong but there is a lot more to your "buzz" theory.  What about a marketing campaign like you see in every magazine for Reynolds Plantation and other high profile new courses?  Do they influence?

[Craig Sweet]

Ratings serve little or no purpose when they are applied to golf courses...am I suppose to believe that the number three rated course is "that" much better than the course rated fifty?

Perhaps it has to do with the "experience" one has playing the number three rated course....the ambviance, the "cache"...the wow factor of the surroundings?

Tom Doak...I find it difficult to believe that Pebble Beach...the golf course... could not be maintained on a $100 greens fee...

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm not saying you are entirely wrong but there is a lot more to your "buzz" theory.  What about a marketing campaign like you see in every magazine for Reynolds Plantation and other high profile new courses?  Do they influence?

I don't read any magazines...I only read Golfclubatlas so they do not influence me and I don't believe influence people on here in a positive way.