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Tom Huckaby

Re:The rating game, a personal story...
« Reply #150 on: November 15, 2006, 11:31:15 AM »
Huck -

It REALLY pains me to cheer for the Irish against ANYBODY, but the lovefest for USC is becoming unbearable. If the Irish win this year, I won't have to cheer for them for another 10 years. I blame ESPN for me having to cheer against SC.

Jim

Interesting.  I see no lovefest.  But perhaps we look for different things...

And good lord, ND put the L in that word!  USC surely doesn't have an entire network devoted to kissing their butts, as ND does....

You're gonna have to rethink this.  Now I can respect choosing the lesser of two evils, as this must be to you... but man I don't buy that reasoning.

TH

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The rating game, a personal story...
« Reply #151 on: November 15, 2006, 05:55:13 PM »
Greg - my humble apologies for the delay in posting this... but good lord were you right about Rutgers, and good lord was I wrong.  But I imagine I am FAR from alone in that status.

 ;D

In any case, I am rooting like hell for them to beat WVU - and if they do, I say they deserve their shot - even more than my beloved Trojans, who sadly likely would get it over them if they beat Cal, ND, UCLA.  Undefeated and wins over three top 10 teams speaks loudly to me... and also underscores why we damn well need a real playoff.

So go you Scarlet Knights!

The Knights are a darn good football team, as balanced offensively and defensively as anyone. If they were to defeat my Mountaineers they would however own only 2 victories over top 10 teams although a win at night under such pressure IN Morgantown would carry some weight.

I am still holding out hope beyond all hope for my aforemntioned scenario to play out. Game by game it seems more than possible but for ALL six games to go that direction is likely a bit much to ask.

Kind of like some of the predictors showing a Michigan-WVU Rose Bowl... talk about a bowl I never expected to see WVU play in! I would greatly enjoy that and it would sure cut down on mny growing travel expenses.

Oh well...

Go OSU (BIG)
Go Cal
Go LSU
Go USC
Go Arkansas
Go Mountaineers

See how simple that is!



Andy Troeger

Re:The rating game, a personal story...
« Reply #152 on: November 15, 2006, 07:18:58 PM »
I would love to play with Patrick and would love celebrating ND beating SC in a few weeks with him.

The very soul of college football shrieks.  Why on earth would anyone want to CELEBRATE such a catastrophe, such a triumph of evil over good?

And here I thought I liked you, Jim.    

Oh well, not to worry, ain't gonna happen.

 ;)

Tom,
USC owes you one after that soccer game last week! :o

Doug Ralston

Re:The rating game, a personal story...
« Reply #153 on: November 15, 2006, 11:41:44 PM »
I note at the beginning of this thread, which actually was about Angel's Crossing and ratings, that #3 on the GD list was Eagle Ridge. Yes, that's right, the very one of which I have spoken and YOU have not played. How do you reckon GD got enough information from Eastern Kentucky to rate it even this high? How many raters actually came to Yatesville Lake State Park? How IS this done?

I KNOW Golfweek, with it's obvious bias AGAINST certain architects, is not going to rate ER anywhere, what with it being a Hills/Forrest. Yet I think it deserves consideration at least as much as Rustic Canyon or Angel's Crossing. I will not reiterate the arguments again. But I do recognize bias when I see it. I love a lot of courses you favor so fervently here, but you clearly reject not just certain architects, but certain building concepts, no matter how well executed. ER belongs to that group. They will have to settle for Golf Digest.

Angel's Crossing is 'politically correct' here, and we will see in coming years just how much weight that carries with Golfweek.

Doug

Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The rating game, a personal story...
« Reply #154 on: November 16, 2006, 04:09:33 AM »
Doug,

Wow!  Thank You! I've been told my entire life that I would never reach the ranks of the politically correct.    :o;D  :o;D  :o;D i guess you've never heard my stand up routine.  :D Maybe I am evolving.   ;D ;D This must be a sign that there is hope out there for anyone to change. ;)

Cheers!

JT
Jim Thompson

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The rating game, a personal story...
« Reply #155 on: November 16, 2006, 08:55:46 AM »
Huck -

I guess you don't remember ESPN proclaiming the 2005 USC team the greatest of all time, but oops, they lost. They still love them way too much so one more loss would be okay by me.

By the way, the only time I was ever in ND I wore a tee shirt that said "God made Notre Dame #1, but Miami made them #2". The reaction by the ND fans was priceless. They would read the first line and cheer, and then continue on to realize they were duped.
Mr Hurricane

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The rating game, a personal story...
« Reply #156 on: November 16, 2006, 08:57:45 AM »
I note at the beginning of this thread, which actually was about Angel's Crossing and ratings, that #3 on the GD list was Eagle Ridge. Yes, that's right, the very one of which I have spoken and YOU have not played. How do you reckon GD got enough information from Eastern Kentucky to rate it even this high? How many raters actually came to Yatesville Lake State Park? How IS this done?

I KNOW Golfweek, with it's obvious bias AGAINST certain architects, is not going to rate ER anywhere, what with it being a Hills/Forrest. Yet I think it deserves consideration at least as much as Rustic Canyon or Angel's Crossing. I will not reiterate the arguments again. But I do recognize bias when I see it. I love a lot of courses you favor so fervently here, but you clearly reject not just certain architects, but certain building concepts, no matter how well executed. ER belongs to that group. They will have to settle for Golf Digest.

Angel's Crossing is 'politically correct' here, and we will see in coming years just how much weight that carries with Golfweek.

Doug

Doug,

You are going to have to remind me again which architects are not allowed on GW's top 100 due to bias.  Last I checked, there was a post on page 1 that listed about every architect I knew and they had made the list.
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

ForkaB

Re:The rating game, a personal story...
« Reply #157 on: November 16, 2006, 09:12:38 AM »
Huck -

I guess you don't remember ESPN proclaiming the 2005 USC team the greatest of all time, but oops, they lost. They still love them way too much so one more loss would be okay by me.

By the way, the only time I was ever in ND I wore a tee shirt that said "God made Notre Dame #1, but Miami made them #2". The reaction by the ND fans was priceless. They would read the first line and cheer, and then continue on to realize they were duped.

Jim


You give the ND fans too much credit.  They were stupefied when they came to the number 2, as it was beyond their ken.......

Of course, SC fans are even less numerate. Like Huck and Gib, they think that mastering a 1-iron is one of the requisites for passing Home Economics 101.

Tom Huckaby

Re:The rating game, a personal story...
« Reply #158 on: November 16, 2006, 10:04:54 AM »
Jim - that was last year, and ESPN was referring to the team over the three year period the winning streak encompassed.  And they were one play from being very, very correct.

This year?  I see WAY WAY WAY more love for the big-ten powers than I do for USC.

But whatever... let me just remind you envy is not a particularly attractive trait.  And be nice or I'll start detailing particulars of a certain south Florida program this year.

 ;)

Doug Ralston

Re:The rating game, a personal story...
« Reply #159 on: November 16, 2006, 12:21:58 PM »
David Wigler;

Can you say Hills/Forrest [Art whom GCA claims has no art]? Sorry, I looked at the list several times; and unless he has changed his name ......

Jim;

If you haven't noted that certain architecture styles are 'politically correct' on GCA, including Angel's Crossing, then you must not be listening the right way  :o . BTW, this is definitely NOT to imply your course isn't great. I have seen the pix, and it is on our 'to do' list when we make it to Michigan again [hopefully early next Spring!]. I simply had to note that Eagle Ridge falls under the 'politically INcorrect' Art Hills/Steve Forrest banner.

Jim, ER is very different in some ways from Angel's Crossing, but it is surprisingly minimal considering the very unusual property it is on. It is a terrible and wonderful challenge, and just plain a blast! Not everyone WILL like it, but those who do truly swear by it [and AT it]. There is a group from Michigan who drive 6 hrs each way a couple times a year to play it, and have reviewed it on GKL. Many others from as far as Canada who swear to keep returning to Eastern Kentucky; no just for ER, but because there are several incredible courses over there. Our own trip from Cincy is 3hr each way, and we do it several times per year.

All that said, Kentucky certainly cannot compare to Michigan for public golf courses [who can?]. While I would love for some of you GCA guys in Michigan to come see us, we also really have to get up there! Looking forward to it.

Doug

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The rating game, a personal story...
« Reply #160 on: November 16, 2006, 01:38:42 PM »
David Wigler;

Can you say Hills/Forrest [Art whom GCA claims has no art]? Sorry, I looked at the list several times; and unless he has changed his name ......

Jim;

If you haven't noted that certain architecture styles are 'politically correct' on GCA, including Angel's Crossing, then you must not be listening the right way  :o . BTW, this is definitely NOT to imply your course isn't great. I have seen the pix, and it is on our 'to do' list when we make it to Michigan again [hopefully early next Spring!]. I simply had to note that Eagle Ridge falls under the 'politically INcorrect' Art Hills/Steve Forrest banner.

Jim, ER is very different in some ways from Angel's Crossing, but it is surprisingly minimal considering the very unusual property it is on. It is a terrible and wonderful challenge, and just plain a blast! Not everyone WILL like it, but those who do truly swear by it [and AT it]. There is a group from Michigan who drive 6 hrs each way a couple times a year to play it, and have reviewed it on GKL. Many others from as far as Canada who swear to keep returning to Eastern Kentucky; no just for ER, but because there are several incredible courses over there. Our own trip from Cincy is 3hr each way, and we do it several times per year.

All that said, Kentucky certainly cannot compare to Michigan for public golf courses [who can?]. While I would love for some of you GCA guys in Michigan to come see us, we also really have to get up there! Looking forward to it.

Doug

Doug,

I do not know if you mean it to be or not but your implication is insidious.  Brad has mentioned several times that 10% or less of his GW raters are GCA guys.  What you are implying is either that Brad changes the rankings to remove all Art Hills courses or the 10% that read GCA have a hidden agenda to punish only Art Hills (As he really is the only architect with a large portfolio and absolutely zero top 100 courses).

As someone who (Speaking very generally) tends to dislike Art's work, I have stated many times that I am a big fan of Half Moon Bay Ocean and certainly believe it could be in GW's top 100 list.  Conversely, I think Bay Harbor was the biggest missed opportunity of the last 50 years.  

That written, every Art Hills course I rate, is rated against what is in the ground.  I certainly have never given a Hills course a 2, so that I could really make sure that the 90% who do not read GCA and might not know he is not a favored architect cannot sneak him into the top 100 in spite of me.

I think everyone would agree that Tom Fazio and Rees Jones are the two most frequently bashed architects on GCA.  Fazio has 17 of the top 100 modern courses and Rees has 4.  If the hidden GCA bias agenda exists, than GW is sure doing a crappy job managing it.

I hope this make sense.  Art's work is evaluated as it exists and only as it exists IMO.  BTW - I would love to see Eagle Ridge one of these days and will make it a point on my next trip to Eastern KY.

And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The rating game, a personal story...
« Reply #161 on: November 16, 2006, 05:22:19 PM »
Wigs,

If you ask Fazio, he might say that he should have at least 100 on the list.  Given his huge production volume and egually astounding construction budgets, he should be hitting home runs much of the time even if his (group's) skills are only average.

For what it is worth, during my time on the GW panel, I did notice a bias against Fazio.  Perhaps it was no more than the natural higher expectations based on the resources normally made available to him ("those who have received much, from them much will be expected” Luke 12:48).  I think he got short changed on the River Course at Kiawah, with the overtly manufactured sister course, Cassique, cracking the Top 100.  Briggs Ranch in San Antonio and Escondido in Horseshoe Bay (TX) are two other Fazio courses which should make the list comfortably.

OT, any thoughts on Saturday?

John Kavanaugh,

Your intimation that playing a lot of courses is a bad thing seems counterintuitive.  Yet when I see Brad Klein offer "over-production" as a legitimate reason for a rater expulsion, I must conclude that I am missing something.  I always thought that the more one involves himself with the subject matter the better his knowledge and contributions will be.  While Paul and I have had our differences on non-golf issues, I admire his devotion to seeing as many of the best courses as possilbe.  I did not even know he was a rater until very recently, so this is something he must have been doing for quite some time.

Mike Cirba,

A rater paying a green fee or buying softgoods has no relevance to the rating process.  Experience, diligence, care, preparation, discernment and open-mindness are the key.  Not patronizing you at all, but you have demonstrated to me these prerequisites on a number of occasions.  There are not enough of us who will travel eight to ten hours out of our way to see a single course.  In Texas, the worthy Rawls Course suffers from that fate, and I am sure there are a number others elsewhere.    

Doug Ralston

Re:The rating game, a personal story...
« Reply #162 on: November 16, 2006, 08:09:44 PM »
Lou;

As you likely know, John K has good reason to be nervous about the anti-Fazio resistance, on GCA and GW. His is member of a Fazio so great that anyone who leaves it out of any list of Best Private Courses is simply too blind to recognize quality, let alone comment on golf architecture.

I have listened to the anti-Hills raves, and they are a mystery to me. Hills has too many quality courses to simply discount him. For all the absurd rages, Shaker Run here in Cincy is just beautiful, and eminantly playable. And like Longaberger, it is almost universally accaimed by everyone who doesn't despise trees, water, and cartpaths [the GCA 'evil trio']. I have not played Bay Harbor, but all the 'not-GCA' lists of Michigan publics rate it near the top. Whether Doak, C & C or other could do better with that land is problematical ....... say 'easily said'!

The course of which I rave, ER, was done by Hills' partner Steve Forrest, on a piece of land someone told me "could not possibly be intended by God to contain a golf course". It is just magnificent fun.

Hey, do I sound like I am anti-GCA? No way! I am a foil. And most of the architects/courses that are upheld here I wish I had access to also. I simply do not think golf is best straited into such limited design categories. Creativity comes in all the fancies of the human range of imagination. I love em all!

Doug the eclectic!

Mike_Cirba

Re:The rating game, a personal story...
« Reply #163 on: November 16, 2006, 11:13:30 PM »
Mike Cirba,

A rater paying a green fee or buying softgoods has no relevance to the rating process.  Experience, diligence, care, preparation, discernment and open-mindness are the key.  Not patronizing you at all, but you have demonstrated to me these prerequisites on a number of occasions.  There are not enough of us who will travel eight to ten hours out of our way to see a single course.  

Lou,

I agree that paying a greens fee or not, and that shopping in the pro shop has no relevance to the rating process.

However, in this rater thread, as in most, there are some very  accusatory innuendos to the contrary implied by a number of folks here (including some I respect tremendously) and I think it's important to point out the reality.  

Thanks for your kind words,
Mike

« Last Edit: November 16, 2006, 11:14:47 PM by Mike Cirba »

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The rating game, a personal story...
« Reply #164 on: November 16, 2006, 11:28:05 PM »
So much nonsense. For the record, three Art Hills courses have been on our top-100 Modern.

GC of Georgia-Lakeside was on the original list in 1997.

Bay Harbor was also on the original list back in 1997, even made the cover of our slick foldout that year!, and remained there through 2002.

That year, Longaberger joined the list, staying there 2002-2003.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2006, 03:41:00 PM by Brad Klein »

Jesse Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The rating game, a personal story...
« Reply #165 on: November 16, 2006, 11:47:09 PM »
Doug,

Missed Opportunities.
That's why I find myself disappointed with Hills work.
Bay Harbor and Longaberger are on two great pieces of land.
However, I find the architecture on both less than inspiring.
I'm not a rater, but those thoughts may creep in when someone is rating another AH course. It's not fair. Nor is it right.
But I could see that happening.
Folks are looking for the missed opportunity instead of a quiet achievement.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2006, 11:50:36 PM by Jesse Jones »

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The rating game, a personal story...
« Reply #166 on: November 17, 2006, 02:18:04 PM »
Jesse,

"Folks are looking for the missed opportunity instead of a quiet achievement."

I think you are onto something, specially the quiet achievement part.  My experience with Hills' courses, limited as it is, is that they are enjoyable yet serious, but not possessing of a large Wow factor.  In other words, solid, functional, utilitarian golf.  I bet that a number of his courses combined were built for the cost of a single Fazio design and that none cost $1MM annually to maintain.

Doug,

I am a charter member of the ecclectics, liking many more things than not.

JK probably doesn't care to defend Fazio at all.  Victoria National is a great course, but John is also a member at a few others that do not make a list of anyone's anything.  He is just a world-class provocateur who enjoys getting a rise out of some people.  Ratings and raters provide particularly fertile soil to turn-over and agitate.  It works nearly every time, and given the length of the thread, this board must get something out of it.

BTW, I think that Victoria National has way too much gunch.    

Andy Troeger

Re:The rating game, a personal story...
« Reply #167 on: November 17, 2006, 02:54:00 PM »

I have listened to the anti-Hills raves, and they are a mystery to me. Hills has too many quality courses to simply discount him. For all the absurd rages, Shaker Run here in Cincy is just beautiful, and eminantly playable. And like Longaberger, it is almost universally accaimed by everyone who doesn't despise trees, water, and cartpaths [the GCA 'evil trio']. I have not played Bay Harbor, but all the 'not-GCA' lists of Michigan publics rate it near the top. Whether Doak, C & C or other could do better with that land is problematical ....... say 'easily said'!

The course of which I rave, ER, was done by Hills' partner Steve Forrest, on a piece of land someone told me "could not possibly be intended by God to contain a golf course". It is just magnificent fun.


Doug,
I'm no Hills/Forest expert. I've played five courses attributed to Hills (and one re-design) in four different states (Indiana, Ohio, Florida, and Oklahoma). Of the five, I thought Longaberger was good (there's a thread back in July where I defended it...don't want to get into that one again)! The other four had their moments, but all had at least 2-3 pretty odd holes and lacked many really good ones.

I've played some in Tennessee and Kentucky; Eagle Ridge sounds like something I would enjoy. If you haven't been, play Stonehenge at Fairfield Glade. It has a neat drop-shot par three that you would enjoy (along with other good holes too).

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