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John Foley

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Crystal Downs changes??
« on: November 30, 2006, 09:29:38 AM »
Going through the old page-a-day calendar last night that I hand't seen in a few weeks I came across a picture of Crystal Downs. The caption stated that Cornish & Silva did a redesign in 1985.

I had never hear that before.

Checked Whitten's book and it's in there also. I had always thought that it was pretty much true to the original design.

Does anyone know what the changes we're and how significant the changes we're from Mac & Maxwell's original work?

Integrity in the moment of choice

Chris_Clouser

Re:Crystal Downs changes??
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2006, 09:42:25 AM »
This was actually much more of a restoration.  Tom Doak can probably provide a lot more input on the topic.  

ed_getka

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Re:Crystal Downs changes??
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2006, 10:32:22 AM »
I think Art Hills may have been asked to consult at some point in the past too. I don't think he did much, if anything.
  One thing to keep in mind is that Crystal Downs wasn't even on the map 20 years ago for most golfers. I can't even remember how I first heard about it, but I know I had wanted to see it for a long time before I finally made it up there.
   It seems CD does more in house stuff of late. It doesn't hurt to have Doak and DeVries as members. 8)
« Last Edit: November 30, 2006, 10:34:47 AM by ed_getka »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Crystal Downs changes??
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2006, 11:01:36 AM »
Hi Ed - Hope all is well!

I was wondering if something in the restoration/renovation by Silva & Cornish started to open everyone's eyes as that is about the time CD started to get more attention.
Integrity in the moment of choice

Doug Sobieski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Crystal Downs changes??
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2006, 11:36:28 AM »
I was wondering if something in the restoration/renovation by Silva & Cornish started to open everyone's eyes as that is about the time CD started to get more attention.

I'd bet that Crenshaw had a bit to do with the increased attention. In August of '86, he made a trip up there immediately prior to the PGA Championship at Inverness. He was gushing to the media about Crystal Downs after that. It's very likely that Crenshaw's comments were the first time that many had ever heard of the place.

In that PGA, on the 18th hole in one round Ben hit a shot that got a very fortunate break and he tossed his wedge up in the air. It came down and cracked him on the head, and I think he may have bled onto his shirt. He was wearing a Crystal Downs shirt at the time, and that may have been what prompted the media to ask about the course.

(Edit - This story may sound like a joke, but it's true)

« Last Edit: November 30, 2006, 01:46:27 PM by Doug Sobieski »

Chris_Clouser

Re:Crystal Downs changes??
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2006, 12:32:33 PM »
Sean,

I've played both and the two courses present almost exact opposite concepts in golf course architecture at this point in my mind.  I felt Oakland Hills was very demanding from tee to green and had no reprieve.  The greens though were some of the more interesting I've ever seen.  If I were to make a comparison that has some relevance, it would be about the same style of architecture as say an Oakmont in my mind.  It is very much what I would envision a prototype US Open course would be like.  

Crystal is completely different.  Yes, length is important, but I felt the toughest holes on the course were the ones where that wasn't an issue.  The 5th and 6th have eaten my lunch, taken my lunch money and poked me in the eye both times I've been there.  15 and 17 haven't been much better.  Actually on all the par threes, fives and long fours the last time I played I was 1 under.  Counting the short and mid-length par fours I was double digits over.     :'(

Both courses have amazing green complexes, but Oakland Hills is much more demanding distance wise and can kill someone if they are just a bit off.  Crystal has more leeway in the distance category, but can still play havoc with your score and confidence.  I could see how someone may not enjoy playing OH even on the best of days, but there is no way somene could not enjoy CD unless it was 40 degrees with a strong breeze coming off the lake.  I could see how that might not be enjoyable.  At least at OH you can say you just don't have the level of game to play that course and keep your pride.  At Crystal there is no excuse other than the fact that you stink at this game.  


TEPaul

Re:Crystal Downs changes??
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2006, 05:04:17 PM »
Probably the reason Crystal Downs was so far under the radar screen for so long was the club and its membership just had about as much interest in promoting itself to the outside world as Tony Soprano has of calling the IRS and promoting himself. If you go there I think you'll understand.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Crystal Downs changes??
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2006, 05:59:34 PM »
Tom Paul,
   I've been there. I don't understand. Would you care to explain?
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re:Crystal Downs changes??
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2006, 06:58:45 PM »
John F:

Geoff Cornish's consulting at Crystal Downs was limited mostly to changing mowing lines to reduce fairway area, and to "restoring" grassy capes in the bunkers, which were later expunged when the club found 1933 pictures of the course which clearly showed no capes.  Tom Mead, the superintendent at the time, did all of the work with Geoff and it led to his interest in design and construction, which is how he came to work for me for a few years.  Tom also took the course from poor condition to very good over the five years he was on board, and that certainly helped when the VIPs started to come around and see it.

For better or worse, I think the "discovery" of the course by the rankings was partly my doing.  When I first started working on the GOLF Magazine list in 1983, I put it on the ballot of courses to be rated and found that only two of the panelists had been to Crystal Downs -- I had played it in 1982 when a senior in college, and Jack Nicklaus had played it when he was 13 on a family vacation.  When I went back in 1986 for a second visit, and the course was in such great shape compared to 1982, I made it a personal mission to get a few more panelists up to see the course and see what they thought.  

Ben Crenshaw came the Thursday of the Buick Open in 1986, and played with me and the pro Fred Muller and a member, Ed Cherney, who had offered to fly Ben up for the afternoon after I told Fred that Ben wanted to visit.  Ben went back Thursday night and won the Buick, and was wearing his Crystal Downs shirt at the PGA when he skulled himself with a wedge, as Doug accurately remembered.

Ben's interest in the course did encourage a couple of other people to visit, a few others came at my invitation, and some USGA types came as guests of Bob Laubach who was on USGA committees for many years.

Note:  No disrespect to Geoff Cornish who was a mentor of sorts to me, but the listings of architects for redesigns in The Architects of Golf always struck me as wrong, because it would encourage architects to tinker with old courses in order to claim them as their own.  For that reason I always insist that the GOLFWEEK and GOLF DIGEST rankings do NOT list my name on the courses for which we consult -- even if we've done a lot of work on them, the intent was to honor the original design.  Rees Jones seems to have the opposite viewpoint on this subject.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2006, 07:02:14 PM by Tom_Doak »

George Pazin

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Re:Crystal Downs changes??
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2006, 06:59:32 PM »
Crystal is completely different.  Yes, length is important, but I felt the toughest holes on the course were the ones where that wasn't an issue.  The 5th and 6th have eaten my lunch, taken my lunch money and poked me in the eye both times I've been there.  15 and 17 haven't been much better.  Actually on all the par threes, fives and long fours the last time I played I was 1 under.  Counting the short and mid-length par fours I was double digits over.     :'(

Chris -

You will soon see that length is not the primary defense at Oakmont, either, so I suspect the courses are more alike than you realize.

 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

TEPaul

Re:Crystal Downs changes??
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2006, 08:45:18 PM »
"Tom Paul,
  I've been there. I don't understand. Would you care to explain?"

ed;

While you were there did you happen to notice a single thing, a single person or anything else that looked or acted remotely like they were interested in promoting that golf course to the outside world?  

If so, please explain to me what it was. ;)

I don't know about Tom Doak but the last time I was there I stayed right there for a few days and also met with Mike DeV while there and I sure got the impression that the club doesn't exactly seek out or take the advice of either of them.

But if someone there asked me for my advice (which noone exactly did) I would tell them probably the best policy would be to put Doak and DeVries on a two man green committee and just leave it at that.  ;)
« Last Edit: November 30, 2006, 08:46:29 PM by TEPaul »

Tom_Doak

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Re:Crystal Downs changes??
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2006, 09:56:53 PM »
Tom P:  Both Mike DeVries and I served on the green committee for a two-year term about 8-10 years ago, and then were released on our own recognizance.  :)  The green committee is in capable hands, and the professional Fred Muller is always included to prevent anything from going haywire.  If there was anything to say, I'd just tell Fred, but for the past five years the only thing to complain about is that the course is too pure.

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Crystal Downs changes??
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2006, 10:25:03 PM »
I think I first heard about CD from something Tom wrote, probably the Confidential Guide.  In any event I made it there for the 1st time this Fall and my GCA IQ went up a few points as a result.  

Why?  Here are two reasons.






Thanks Bob and Ed!!!
« Last Edit: November 30, 2006, 10:25:34 PM by Dan Moore »
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

PThomas

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Re:Crystal Downs changes??
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2006, 10:34:07 PM »
I think I first heard about CD from something Tom wrote, probably the Confidential Guide.  In any event I made it there for the 1st time this Fall and my GCA IQ went up a few points as a result.  

Why?  Here are two reasons.



thanks for posting Dan

one of my favorite holes in golf, 17 at CD




Thanks Bob and Ed!!!
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Crystal Downs changes??
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2006, 11:22:03 PM »
The education starts at the first.  On in 2 but on the back right above the hole.  Despite aiming well left of the hole I end up 40 feet away on the lower left of the green.  Welcome to Crystal Downs my host says.  
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

TEPaul

Re:Crystal Downs changes??
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2006, 12:01:11 AM »
TomD:

Released on your own recognizance?? That's hilarious. I guess you're right though, if Fred Mueller is involved things will be AOK. That man has some history, knowledge and the greatest asset of all---a helluva sense of humor.

But do the place a favor, would you? Tell Fred to ask them to do some serious tynning and aeriating this spring on that course's approaches and if they have the coin to take it on back down the fairway too, then go for it.

That golf course is the greatest but if they just firmed the thing up "through the green", particularly on the approaches that membership is going to have a collective orgasm this coming year.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2006, 12:03:22 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Crystal Downs changes??
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2006, 12:05:53 AM »
Dan Moore, who are you man? Those are some of the most beautiful, pure photographs I've ever seen.

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Crystal Downs changes??
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2006, 12:15:52 AM »
TE

It was a good day for photos and even better for golf.  In fact they were aerating the fairways that day.  
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

John Foley

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Re:Crystal Downs changes??
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2006, 08:44:56 AM »
Tom D - Thanks for the details. It makes sense as I always thought of CD being one of the very true to original design courses.

Dan - Great pics. Please share more if you can. They are amazing.
Integrity in the moment of choice

Dan Moore

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Re:Crystal Downs changes??
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2006, 09:54:04 AM »
here are a couple more of 17 which Paul Thomas likes so much.  The middle photo is from where my tee shot ended up.  Quite a golf shot from there.  





« Last Edit: December 01, 2006, 09:54:33 AM by Dan Moore »
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

PThomas

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Re:Crystal Downs changes??
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2006, 10:01:42 AM »
thanks so much Dan for  brightening my day during this snowstorm >:(
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

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