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Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Strantz: A body of work
« on: November 10, 2006, 05:55:03 PM »
Having only played his NC efforts (Tobacco Road and Tot Hill Farm), and being blown away by both of them, I am curious to learn how others rank the rest of his original courses.

I have also heard a lot about some of his work being "toned down" for the purpose of "improving maintenance and playability," particularly in Virginia. Are those courses being ruined? Do they rank below his unmolested creations?

What is the consensus in the treehouse?

(I dearly wanted to attend the Dixie Cup. Hopefully I'll get another chance to experience Bull's Bay)
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Strantz: A body of work
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2006, 06:50:42 PM »
I didn't play them when they opened, but his Virginia courses aren't being ruined. RNK is incredible.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Strantz: A body of work
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2006, 07:02:21 PM »
If one builds the greatest course in the world and it cannot be maintained..is it the greatest course in the world???  This is not directed at any particular architect or course....just comment on the staement above....
« Last Edit: November 10, 2006, 07:03:32 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Strantz: A body of work
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2006, 07:13:18 PM »
If one builds the greatest course in the world and it does not attract a level of play that will keep the doors open, is it the greatest course in the world???  This is not directed at any particular architect or course... just a comment on the statement above.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2006, 07:14:39 PM by Michael Whitaker »
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Strantz: A body of work
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2006, 07:14:54 PM »
I found Bull's Bay to be much better than Tobacco Road, True Blue (my least favorite), and Caledonia.  Better angles, less gimmicky, and much better green complexes..

Just my 2 cents -- I'm not an expert   ;)

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Strantz: A body of work
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2006, 07:22:47 PM »
If one builds the greatest course in the world and it does not attract a level of play that will keep the doors open, is it the greatest course in the world???  This is not directed at any particular architect or course... just a comment on the statement above.

Mike,
I would think the greatest course in the world would have no problem attracting play......and thus keeping the doors open....I think Pinehurst 2 would be an example of great course that can have simple maintenance...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jay Flemma

Re:Strantz: A body of work
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2006, 07:32:19 PM »
1.  MPCC/Bull's Bay
2. Tobacco Road
3. Royal New Kent
4. Caledonia

Again, we are splitting hairs between the '78 Steelers and the '84 Niners...

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Strantz: A body of work
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2006, 08:18:17 PM »
Mike, by posting on this particular thread, I can't believe you are just making an idle comment, not asking if MS's courses can be thought of so highly, if they can't be maintained.

Well, I honestly think that is a fair question.  Unfortunately, I have not maintenance experience to draw from to answer with any credibility.

So, I'd have to come at it from around the barn.  How can courses with features like these Strantz courses exhibiting these verticle 3-6foot sand walls survive if they are unmaintainable?  To survive, they have to be kept playable.  Is it the very high greens fees that save the course from lesser maintanance and thus failing conditions and fewer players?  Well, if that were the case, how does TR do it at about $60-75?  Caledonia, and True Blue seem to have fees all over the map, and I heard a few unpublished specials.  But, at the $150+ rate, they seem to be able to hire enough maintanance to address the issues of what some would say are unreasonably hard features to maintain.

I would say that the only other time I was at True Blue was about 1999 when I played Caledonia one day, and was going to play True Blue the next.  However, a severe rain passed in the night, and when I went to the course, TB was literally washed out.  I have some photos here somewhere.  But all those steep faced bunkers were washed down and an army of guys were out there hand raking them back up.

But, I was particularly curious last week when Mike Whitaker hit his tee ball straight into the face of the 16th hole at TB, about a foot from the top and 3-4ft from the base.  It stuck right there.  It was completely unplayable. So, Mike sort of stabbed at the sand and it crumbled like some sort of sprayed on mix of sand and sticker.  It led me to wonder how they get that sand to stick.  I was imagining some sort of wet sand sprayer that is used to literally paint the sand on the vertical wall.  I've seen the sand slurry machines before, but didn't see them used in that manner.

What do you think Mike?  
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Strantz: A body of work
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2006, 08:33:47 PM »
1.  MPCC/Bull's Bay
2. Tobacco Road
3. Royal New Kent
4. Caledonia


Jay,

This is dangerouly close to the Sweeney 10 round rule. I will assume that you would split your rounds between MPCC and Bull's Bay at 5 and 5. It took you two weeks, but thank-you for your answer.  :D

Jay Flemma

Re:Strantz: A body of work
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2006, 11:02:05 PM »
No Mike, I have not any split.  one cannot sully such masterpieces by quantifying.  I will enjoy each as God wills.

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Strantz: A body of work
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2006, 12:00:04 AM »
If the maintenance question is directed at True Blue, my understanding is that the difficulty of the golf course was what made the changes happen.  But, I'd wager that the classic Myrtle Beach golfing problem happened: people constantly played from the wrong tees.  I believe that Strantz makes shots proportionally, similarly difficult at TB, and it's the 30 handicappers playing from the 6800 markers who give the most (and least-informed) opinions on golf courses down there.  Presumably, any controversial features at Bulls Bay will always be there, because by having a defined membership, such features are contextualized by that group of <500 golfers who play there regularly.  Hackers looking for a good time are not going to appreciate such features, and an already-splendid golf course is afflicted as a result.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Strantz: A body of work
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2006, 12:11:39 AM »
In the mid 90's when I was first becoming enamoured with golf course architecture there was not near the quality of great courses to feed my imagination that we have today, 2006.  

Sand Hills debuted in what, 1995?  Bandon Dunes had not yet been built, Pacific was years & years away.   Dye had not done Whistling Straits yet.  No Kingsley Club....etc.

During this era, Mike Strantz's courses stood out to me as shining examples of blending the golf course harmoniously with the existing landscape.  His work was completely different from everything else I had seen from Jack and Rees and Bobby.

And I told all my buddies about the guy and they made fun of me for about a decade.  >:(

I don't think there is any question Strantz was a great designer, but you gotta wonder how much extra love he is going to get having passed prematurely.  I think there is no doubt that a handful of his courses probably constitute some of the finest golf any of us can hope to experience in our lifetime, but was he the greatest golf course architect ever???  I don't think so.    
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Strantz: A body of work
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2006, 09:21:59 AM »
If the maintenance question is directed at True Blue, my understanding is that the difficulty of the golf course was what made the changes happen.  But, I'd wager that the classic Myrtle Beach golfing problem happened: people constantly played from the wrong tees.  I believe that Strantz makes shots proportionally, similarly difficult at TB, and it's the 30 handicappers playing from the 6800 markers who give the most (and least-informed) opinions on golf courses down there.  Presumably, any controversial features at Bulls Bay will always be there, because by having a defined membership, such features are contextualized by that group of <500 golfers who play there regularly.  Hackers looking for a good time are not going to appreciate such features, and an already-splendid golf course is afflicted as a result.

This is spot on.  The problem with the tees at True Blue is that most golfers tend to go to the second set automatically.  Well, the second set is a little over 6800 yds. and TB is one tough mother at that distance even now that some of the difficulty has been taken out of the original design.  The gap between the second tees and the third is over 400 yds., and at 6400 it is still a challenge for low handicappers.  I would guess, and it's only a guess, that the second set of tees on most daily fee/resort courses are more like 6600-6700.  My current index is a 6, and TB at 6800 is too hard for me.  At 6400, it is a blast that might still kick my butt if I'm not playing well, but would be enjoyable anyway.

BTW, Michael Whitaker has posted numerous times as to what and why the changes were made, and it was about difficulty, not maintenance, and I don't think it was done with the blessings of Mike Strantz.

I haven't been fortunate enough to play Bulls Bay or the Va. courses, but my ranking of the 4 I have played would be:

1. Tobacco Rd.
2. Caledonia
3. True Blue (behind Caledonia by a whisker, with the difference being only that if I could only play one or the other I'd pick Caledonia.  But I'd be sad if I went to Pawley's and did only play one of the two...
4. Tot Hill  (which I still like a lot, much more than most)
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Strantz: A body of work
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2006, 11:50:34 AM »
Tim and A.G.:

I think you are entirely correct that the objection to True Blue (and my objection to Royal New Kent and Stonehouse) is that they are too difficult at 6800 yards and need to be played at 6400 to be enjoyed by the average golfer.

But, the reason for that goes back to Mike's use of cross hazards and shallow greens on any number of holes per course.  He built a few holes per round where you have to be hitting a short iron into the green or you have no chance, so you have to be playing the course from a relatively short distance.  That's why I like Caledonia and Tobacco Road more than the others I've played ... he only gave you those distances.  When he put in tees at 7,100 yards, they only work for a handful of players, and I don't agree with that approach.

Bulls Bay may be different, based on my perusal of the aerial photograph, and that's why I would like to play it someday.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2006, 11:51:11 AM by Tom_Doak »

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Strantz: A body of work
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2006, 01:45:28 PM »
Here is a link to the last year's thread on the True Blue changes: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=19512;start=67

Only one hole, the 8th, was dramatically changed. Most of the changes do not make the course play any differently for a good player like Tim. The high handicappers received most of the benefit... and they represent 90% of the play on the Grand Strand courses.

In fairness to Mike, he was asked to build a very difficult course at True Blue... and he delivered. It was not his fault that the owners misjudged their marketing objective.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Tim Copeland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Strantz: A body of work
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2006, 02:09:24 PM »

But, I was particularly curious last week when Mike Whitaker hit his tee ball straight into the face of the 16th hole at TB, about a foot from the top and 3-4ft from the base.  It stuck right there.  It was completely unplayable. So, Mike sort of stabbed at the sand and it crumbled like some sort of sprayed on mix of sand and sticker.  It led me to wonder how they get that sand to stick.  I was imagining some sort of wet sand sprayer that is used to literally paint the sand on the vertical wall.  I've seen the sand slurry machines before, but didn't see them used in that manner.


This is the combination we are using at Isleworth to solve the problem of sand washing off of steep faces that architects build.

http://www.sandmat.com/products.php

This is the fabric that is installed underneath the sand

http://www.pro-angle.com/

This is the sand we are using to replace their sand
I need a nickname so I can tell all that I know.....

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Strantz: A body of work
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2006, 04:27:25 PM »
Michael D,
Has anybody really suggested that Strantz was the greatest architect ever?

He's not my favorite, but I certainly appreciate his designs.  Yep - I called him a genius, but there are more than one genius nowadays.

Tim G,
Great observation on the Myrtle Beach "experience".  Many northeners go down there and play the first post-winter golf.  Myrtle Beach is Kitch with a capital K.   Like you, I doubt that many MB golfers appreciate good golf architecture.

Somehow, I doubt that MB attracts the same crowd as Bandon Dunes or even the Pinehurst area  :)

Back to Strantz - I'm glad his courses are down in Pawleys Island, a much "nicer" area than MB, in my opinion..
« Last Edit: November 11, 2006, 04:28:17 PM by Dan Herrmann »

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Strantz: A body of work
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2006, 11:14:52 PM »
I have played Strantz's entire body of work with the exception of Bulls Bay.

I love his courses, probably Tobacco and Royal New Kent are tops, but every course is just a special treat.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Jay Flemma

Re:Strantz: A body of work
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2006, 10:21:59 AM »
Tom: TB has been softened considerably and, seen in the light of passage of years, plays much less formidaly than many new creations.  RNK is really tough from those 6800 tees...it even really tough from the 6400 tees too.

My girlfriend had a funny reaction.  I took her for our first golf date to RNK and she told me about a funny conversation she had with one of the lawyers in her firm.  "I told him you were taking me to Royal New Kent and his face fell and he asked me 'are you sure this guy likes you?'"

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