Double Dogleg Par 5's

[Bryan Izatt]

Are they good designs generally?  Or are they just a way to force three shoters (assuming the corners can't be cut)?  Is the one in the aerial below, a good double dogleg.  The trees on both sides of the fairway are of sufficient height and density to prevent cutting the corners for all but the longerst and most adventurous.  The drive is about 280 from the tips; the second leg is about 175 and the last leg is about 150.

[Tom_Doak]

Hit it the right distance to the right spot, or bunt your next shot forward a bit.  (Yawn.)

Is that the Golf Club of Georgia, the former GOLF DIGEST award-winner?

[James Bennett]

Let me see - trees on the inside corners of the doglegs (both of them), bunkers on the outside of the doglegs (both of them).

Appears to be a poster child for 'penal golf'.

Interesting to see that the green is unbunkered.

There is a double dogleg at The Grange - East Course (#13) in Adelaide which was an interesting hole 30 years ago.  Since then, the trees on the rhs have grown to become a wallpaper preventing any options on the hole.  Something that had a strategic option along the way (not necessarily well executed architecturally, but there was an option) has disappeared into a strictly penal route of some 550 yards. (Hole #6 is also a double dogleg at Grange East, which has undergone much change over recent years emphasising a more penal approach).

James B

[Jim Sweeney]

According to your yardages and if my arithmatic is cirrect, the hole is 605 yads long, borderline reachable even if one could get the second up over the trees. And is that water behind and to the right of the green? If so, seems to make the second shot choice moot, unless by lofting a mid iron over the trees one could eek out some yardage or angle advantage, though probably not enough to take the risk.

A double dogleg may be a strategy for fiting a par five into a property (Albuquerque CC # 2) or taking advantage of another feature, such as a pond.

I'm trying to remember the name of the course in Puerto Rico (I haven't been there) that has an RTJ golf course with a double dogleg around a pond that receives favorable comments. Descriptions of the hole say that one can get home in two by challenging the pond with the tee shot, then gambling with the far corner of the lake and some jungle right of the green. The hole plays out toward the beach. (Dorado Beach Hotel?)

Sounds pretty good top me.

[Tom_Doak]

That's the 13th hole at Dorado Beach you are describing -- back in the day, it was one of Trent Jones' best-known and most highly publicized golf holes, at least on the East Coast where I grew up.

[Mark_F]

National Moonah's 15th could be classified as a double dogleg.

Not hemmed in by trees like the above, it has a few more options - but only if you hit the ball a LONG way in the first place, and the conditions are right.

National members undoubtredly have it as one of the most dramatic holes going around.

[peter_p]

Three in Oregon.
Forest Hills (Cornelius) #6 teed is a right/left which teed of down into a valley ala Astoria, except the fairway was 35 yards wide ending in a dogleg right. The next dogleg is still guarded by a single very large douglas fir. Unless you were long and enjoyed flirting with an OB right, the best play to open the green was to drive long left so you could skirt the tree on its left. A good hole.

Black Butte (GLaze Meadow) #1 is a left right variety where the intelligent play was mid iron for all three shots. At best okay.

Mountain High (Bend)(NLE) #8. The first time I played it I hit a perfect drive to the center of the fairway at the corner. Wide open, my best play was a gap or pitching wedge to the next turning point. A bad hole.

 

[Bryan Izatt]

Tom,

Not in Georgia - it's Playacar Golf Club in Playa del Carmen Mexico.  Designed by Von Hagge.

The hole is listed as 607 yards and plays every bit of it because of the winds and the doglegs.  So, there's no real bunting on any of the shots.  Also no real options of going for the green.  The strategy is to get the right distance on each shot and keep it in the fairway.  The green stuff is literally jungle.  Totally penal.  No bunkers around the green; totally unnecessary as that is water to the right of the green.

All in all a tough slog of a hole - especially for resort players.

But a very interesting (and testing) course.  There is no relief from the jungle on any hole.  A very interesting routing.  The first nine is 3257 yards from the tips.  The back nine 3945 yards    You'd better score early and hang on for the back.

I played the double dogleg at Dorado two years ago - I thought it was the fourth, but then maybe the nines were reversed.  I thought it a better double dogleg as there was an option on both doglegs to cut across the lakes.  I came close to getting there in two.  If I recall correctly there was the possibility of recovery shots (at least if you missed the ponds).  Seems to me I remember Chi Chi playing that hole on Shell's WWOG many years ago, with the announcers agog at his 300 yard drives.

[Ally Mcintosh]

the 11th hole on the harry colt designed east course at wentworth is often cited as one of the first (and best) examples of a double dogleg... and also by many as one of the best holes on the whole wentworth estate (three highly rated courses)...

anyone know why?

[Andrew Summerell]

Bob Harrison (Greg Norman) is well known for double doglegs here in Australia. He has designed quite a few of them, some of which are reasonable holes.

In most cases, double doglegs don’t work when there is no vision of what is around the corner. Lack of vision generally means no encouragement to cut the corner.

Tight double doglegs aren’t much fun as the distance of the turnpoint is difficult to get right.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

The hole pictured bears an eerie resemblence to the 8th at Boca Rio, which I enjoy playing.

A tee shot hugging the right side can present an opening for a shot at the green.

Mike Sweeney,

It's the 13th at Dorado Beach.
The "Bong" sisters, two tall palms next to the pond, present an unusual hazard.  In addition, with the green right on the beach, the Trade winds are a big factor in playing the hole.

The "Bong" sisters got their name by the unusual sound a golf ball would make upon solid contact with them.

The orientation of the green favors approaching from the left on your third shot, and a difficult approach if you go for the green in two.

It was a great hole, with its architecture rendered far less effective by modern technology.

[T_MacWood]

The most interesting double dogleg I've come across is the 14th at The Golf Club. The drive features a huge bunker in the middle of the fairway, the safe route is out to the left, the bold route right over a smaller section of the bunker to the right (or over the center would be very bold and very long). The second shot features lake along the left, so the safe route is well to the right and then up to the green, back to the left.

If you are very long hypothetically you can play the hole straight which is the strength of good double dogleg IMO....bold play can straighten the hole out. The hole is 618 yards long.

Another fabulous hole is the 7th at Cape Breton. The heroic 13th at Dorado is excellent too...its the shortest of the three and probably the easiest to straighten out today.

[Tony_Muldoon]

I seem to remember the 16th at the K club providing some excitment.  It was fun seeing Tiger go too far left, get a two club drop due to crowd damge and then draw his ball onto the green.

Jm Finegan said it was a great par 5 and that was when it was routed no 7. However at 570(?) yards it was mostly two straight shots for those guys.

[JohnV]

Three in Oregon.
Forest Hills (Cornelius) #6 teed is a right/left which teed of down into a valley ala Astoria, except the fairway was 35 yards wide ending in a dogleg right. The next dogleg is still guarded by a single very large douglas fir. Unless you were long and enjoyed flirting with an OB right, the best play to open the green was to drive long left so you could skirt the tree on its left. A good hole.

Black Butte (GLaze Meadow) #1 is a left right variety where the intelligent play was mid iron for all three shots. At best okay.

Mountain High (Bend)(NLE) #8. The first time I played it I hit a perfect drive to the center of the fairway at the corner. Wide open, my best play was a gap or pitching wedge to the next turning point. A bad hole.

Peter, you missed one.  #11 at Witch Hollow which is a left/right example.  I like it because both corners can by cut by the aggressive player who is willing to take a chance.  The second dogleg is defended by two very large firs and a small bunker, while the first one's primary defense is a bunker and death in the long rough left of it.

I always liked the one at Forest Hills and hated the one at Black Butte.  I only played Mountain High once and can't remember a thing about it.  

I was a starter at Black Butte once and watched  many good to very good players play that hole.  Only one player who hit a wood ended up with any kind of second shot and that was because he snap hooked a 4-wood around the corner.  The best play was 4-iron, 9-iron, 9-iron.  A friend of mine says it is the worst starting hole in the world.  He might be right.

[Tom Huckaby]

#4 at Poppy Hills is one, and it works.  I tend to agree with redanman on this - if the ability to cut one or both of the corners is there, they can be great fun - and one can do so at #4 Poppy Hills.

TH

[mike_malone]

 #4 at Glen Mills in Pa. is fun. It doglegs left around a single file line of trees then doglegs right by an area of broken ground, bunkers, and mounds. If you are willing to hug the tree line on the left you can go for the green. If not you will need to lay up over the gunch to a fairway with OB to the left. Nothing is silly here; it has strategy and execution all through the hole.

[Mike Hendren]

When the PGA was held at Shoal Creek, much was made of the risk/reward nature of the par-fives with water fronting three of the four greens.  However, in my opinion the waterless par five 3rd is the best of the bunch.  

A hole that is straight if a big hitter can carry the angled fairway bunkers on the tee and second shots.  Otherwise, it must be played as a double dogleg.  The hole runs from one o-clock to seven o-clock in this aerial:

http://www.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=birmingham,+al&ie=UTF8&t=k&om=0&safe=on&z=16&ll=33.43291,-86.611276&spn=0.006626,0.02075&iwloc=addr

Hopefully someone can paste the aerial directly.

Mike

[Bryan Izatt]

Bogey,

Here's the 3rd at Shoal Creek.  Looks to be a subtle double dogleg.  Why is it the best?

[Garland Bayley]

Forrest produced a double dogleg at the Hideout

Hole 9 581/555/504 Par 5

The ninth is an interesting par 5 turning right and then back to the left again presenting three distinctly different looking shots. This is the tee shot to get into position to play slightly down hill to the right.



Where you will see the hole turning left again. To access back pin positions, you will have to deal with that bunker in the center of the fairway.



To the left sits a three tiered green set against the hillside.



If you are a real strong player and want to get home in two, you will have to work the second shot in the opposite direction the lie gives you.

Off hand, I would guess this to be a more interesting hole than the on Bryan presented.

[peter_p]

JVB,
And there is the forgettable 18th at Pacific Dunes.

[Mike Hendren]

Bryan,

Thanks for posting the photo.

The more one plays right off the tee to avoid the long fairway bunker, the more the large bunker short and right of the green comes into play.  It is very difficult to determine how much of that second bunker you can bite off and we all know that 75 yard bunker shot is among the toughest in the game.  

Good subtle strategy from Jack.

Mike

[Bob Jenkins]

Bryan,

Another double dogleg par 5 is Hole # 1 on the East nine at Sahalee. Is is not as long as your hole and the last half of the hole is downhill. If you can fade it a bit just over 260 or so, depending on the tee, you can get a downhill kick and a go at it but water is in front. Hated the hole when I first played it but came to appreciate it after time.

With the photo you posted, in order to get a shot at the green you would have to hit a slight fade over 300 yards and then draw a fairway wood at least 250, probably more.

If that is reachable in 2, it would only be for .000001% of golfers.

Bob Jenkins aka Bob Jenkins

[Glenn Spencer]

The most interesting double dogleg I've come across is the 14th at The Golf Club. The drive features a huge bunker in the middle of the fairway, the safe route is out to the left, the bold route right over a smaller section of the bunker to the right (or over the center would be very bold and very long). The second shot features lake along the left, so the safe route is well to the right and then up to the green, back to the left.

If you are very long hypothetically you can play the hole straight which is the strength of good double dogleg IMO....bold play can straighten the hole out. The hole is 618 yards long.

Another fabulous hole is the 7th at Cape Breton. The heroic 13th at Dorado is excellent too...its the shortest of the three and probably the easiest to straighten out today.

You had better be REALLY, REALLY long to straighten that hole out.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Glenn, I think the first one Tom noted is a Art Hills version. lol

[Mark_Fine]

Bolslaw,
Don't blame the double doglegs at Saucon on the Gordons.  That was the owner demanding that his par five holes would "not be reached in two shots".  I do agree with you however, that the Gordons didn't learn as much as they should have from Flynn.  Their greens are generally pretty interesting but they missed class when Flynn was discussing hazards and bunkering  

I am not a big fan of double doglegs but almost any design concept can work.  The key is to not over use it and I wouldn't use the double dogleg very often period.