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Alex_Wyatt

Bayonne...oh, so close.
« on: September 30, 2006, 04:12:53 PM »
What an amazing engineering achievement is Bayonne.  Driving up is an astounding experience. There are so many wonderful, fun holes on the course and Bergstol's intentions could not have been better, but I just couldn't help but feel that everything ended up feeling just a little too manufactured, a little too difficult, the greens ever so slightly too difficult to approach.  A Doak 6.5 or 7 that is literally an inch here and a foot there from being a 8.5 or 9.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bayonne...oh, so close.
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2006, 06:16:12 PM »
Alex -

I have never seen Bayonne GC (and probably never well), so I cannot comment on the specifics of your obersvations.

However, I would caution anyone evaluating a new course to realize that the overhwhelming majority of new courses will look a little manufactured....BECAUSE THEY ARE! It takes time for earth that has been moved and shaped to settle and compact a bit. It takes time for grasses to grow in fully. It takes time for the elements (wind & rain) to shape the look of a golf course.  It also takes time for the GCA/designer to see how a new course plays and to see where it might need to be tweaked and trimmed a bit.  Sharp edges do tend to get smoothed out over time.

My guess is the vast majority of the "golden age" golf courses that are revered on this board looked more than a little manufactured when they first opened 70 or 80 years ago.

DT

 

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bayonne...oh, so close.
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2006, 08:04:45 PM »
David, earth settling and compaction are myths in golf course construction -- or an excuse for incompetence and an attempt to explain away things that are more severe than they should be.

Bayonne doesn't need to settle, anyway. It's totally manufactured and totally engaging.

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bayonne...oh, so close.
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2006, 10:19:00 PM »
Gentlemen,

   The facts here might be a tad surprising.

    All but 38 acres of the Bayonne site lie on earth moved specifically for the purpose of creating a golf course (and one that I think is infinitely interesting and yields far more pleasure than pain over time). Those unique 38 acres (and I'm near certain centered at, or near, the clubhouse construction area) represented a previously-active landfill and landfills do settle a little bit over time. I'm told this has been well identified and anticipated by the construction engineers. It's not at all expected to impact the course or any measure of the course architecture or playability.

   Surely anyone can label the course "totally manufactured." It is. So was Shadow Creek, most of the four Trump courses along with a quite a few others debuting over the past decade. In fact, several courses by many GCA-esteemed archies have 70% "manufacturing" in them yet don't come close to the creativity exampled by Eric Bergstol and his team at Bayonne.

   Is the course too "difficult" and are the greens unreceptive to approach???....perhaps for the mid-to-high handicappers or others unwilling to give serious thought to terrain, or audience to a caddy's advice. However, well thought out and smartly executed approach shots yield good results. This is a course, like it's Irish and Scottish brethren, that calls for significant thinking and adjustment as the aerial or "bomb and gouge" player will simply never go low without intuitively thinking about how to use the ground to get near most pins. I should think watching Tiger at Hoylake this year would be living proof of this type of strategic golf.

 Yes, the areas surrounding the greens can swallow up mis-hit balls into the fescue at an alarming rate, but recent and significant trimming of such fescues has produced a far more benign error zone than earlier this season. Missed drives, even into adjoining fairways, are now findable and playable, if not still awkward and penal. Nothing about Bayonne is predictable or ordinary and nor should it ever be diluted by that sort of conventional thinking (just look down the road in Jersey City for that kind of design).

  Most importantly, is it not preferable to build a tough and stiff course from the outset that can be "softened" or "eased" over time? Can (or should) courses that are "totally manufactured" be built "soft" then firmed-up shortly thereafter? Which would you do if you were trying to create something quite unique? Why build soft greens into a course that is designed to emulate the great tracks over the pond? Interestingly, everyone here raved about Ballyneal, yet when I played it with another GCA'er in late August, those greens were very soft and very slow. In fact, scoring there required full shoulder-turns on anything outside 10 feet. Just weeks later many said it's green speeds were perfect yet it's pro and owner said they'd never go north of 9.5-10 for fear of making them "too difficult." The point is that it has the help and aid of mother nature to provide it's flexibility and range of playability. Bayonne is the work of the hand of man, and yet will likely achieve a far greater measure of such range and flexibility over time, but until you've played it a few times...think match play over medal and take in all the wonder of it's strategic and architectual achievement.....that's the key.

   

   
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Mike_Cirba

Re:Bayonne...oh, so close.
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2006, 10:30:34 PM »
Interesting to hear such different perspectives about Bayonne.

I'm hoping Mr. Wyatt comes back to provide some specifics because it's tough to imagine "an inch here and a foot there" making up to a 2 point difference on the Doak Scale.

Ideally, it might be the type of specific golf course debate that illuminates the different perspectives each of us have in judging the merits of a golf course.  For those who've played Bayonne, do you have a sense of what Mr. Wyatt might be alluding to in his remarks?

Alex_Wyatt

Re:Bayonne...oh, so close.
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2006, 11:17:53 PM »
Every golf course is fair, because all the players have to tackle the same obstacles.  I can't stand hearing people say a golf course is unfair.

But Bayonne has no margin for error and asks players to perform to a standard that is unreasonable, IN MY OPINION. My caddy and my member host certainly agreed with me. It at least has the opportunity to be great, mostly through changes in maintenance, with a few changes on a couple of greens. As opposed to Sebonack, which has no opportunity to be great.




Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bayonne...oh, so close.
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2006, 09:46:12 PM »
Never have I been so surprised by what can be created on a formerly flat piece of property.  Is it as great as Shinny?  No.  Is it one hell of an awesome course?  Absolutley.  This is a course you could play for years and find new features that you cherish every time.  In addition, they get the idea of firm and fast.  I can't wait to play there again next spring. I didn't leave Kingsbarns with this kind of feeling.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Bayonne...oh, so close.
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2006, 09:55:33 PM »
Alex:  there you go again.  I'm not offended, but other people in powerful positions may very well be offended, so watch your back!

Yes, if Bayonne were different a couple of feet here or there on the greens, it would probably be much better.  But it is a total re-do (and probably 30 acres) short of a 9 on the Doak scale, at least from my pen.  Stick to the Wyatt scale from now on, so I'm not compelled to rebut your thoughts.

Alex_Wyatt

Re:Bayonne...oh, so close.
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2006, 10:07:56 PM »
"other people in powerful positions"? "watch your back"? is gca.com now a venue for threatening people with an opinion?

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bayonne...oh, so close.
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2006, 10:35:24 PM »
In the immortal words of Sargeant Hulka--

"Lighten up Francis. One of these men may save your life someday"
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bayonne...oh, so close.
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2006, 11:07:44 PM »
"other people in powerful positions"? "watch your back"? is gca.com now a venue for threatening people with an opinion?
Alex,
Do you really think you can offend a golf architect?  Golf architects, politicians and golf teachers wake every morning knowing as many people hate them as love them. Hell clinton won with 43%..... I'm in nicarauga right now and Ortega is winning with 40 percent.....
The easiest to offend on this site are the asphalt paver guys...thin skin..
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bayonne...oh, so close.
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2006, 01:33:50 PM »
Yes, if Bayonne were different a couple of feet here or there on the greens, it would probably be much better.  But it is a total re-do (and probably 30 acres) short of a 9 on the Doak scale, at least from my pen.  Stick to the Wyatt scale from now on, so I'm not compelled to rebut your thoughts.

A total re-do and 30 acres short of a 9?

That means it is probably a 6-7 now!

That is darned good.


Tom Dunne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bayonne...oh, so close.
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2006, 03:55:30 PM »
Alex, I find the Sebonack bashing totally bewildering. I liked Bayonne a good deal, but you make it sound like we're talking about Bayonne vs. Dyker Beach. "No opportunity to be great"? It just amazes me that you seem to have been able to stand on the tenth tee at Sebonack (or the eleventh, or the twelfth, or the eighteenth...) and feel like your time was being wasted. I don't think Sebonack is a perfect course, but it's pretty damn good. You dragged it into this discussion of Bayonne completely un-prompted, and you've ripped it before, so I don't think you should act surprised when Tom Doak takes exception.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2006, 04:07:01 PM by Tom Dunne »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Bayonne...oh, so close.
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2006, 07:12:28 PM »
Voytek:

I thought Bayonne was very good; I was really impressed with it.  But Lahinch and Cruden Bay are 8's on the Doak scale, and Bayonne is NOT a couple of feet here and there away from being as good as they are.

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bayonne...oh, so close.
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2006, 07:41:56 PM »
Tom,

  Sounds you need to get back to Lahinch & Cruden Bay ASAP ;)....they might be higher!! No question this newcomer defers to it's inspiration, for sure.

  Ignoring the bull... of splitting hairs, your "very good" equals no less than exceptional for most architectually inclined players, especially when compared either to the masses  of mediocrity built post Sand Hills.

  Other than the lack of some "purer-to-the concept" run-up areas and the youthful firmness of the greens turf, what ""difference of a couple of feet" mean? Maybe I missed something, but I'd love to better understand your take. No question some of the trapped-feeling corridors precluded a  greenfront or approach apron, but I'm happy to report that the latter issue has changed. They've softened-up beautifully, are receptive to well-executed shots, and allow for check spin for the first time.

 
 
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Bayonne...oh, so close.
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2006, 08:29:59 PM »
Steve:

You'll have to ask Alex what "an inch here and a foot there" means, it's his statement not mine.  But do not translate "very good" into "exceptional" on my behalf.  It's exceptional to you; I'll stick with very good and impressive.

The holes I liked least were the ones with a steep bank / "dunes" to one side and a steep drop on the other, such as #9.  Just doesn't fit the theme very well to me.  Lahinch actually has one of the only such holes which I've ever thought was great -- the par-4 ninth.  Come to think of it, the old 4th (now the 3rd I guess) has some of the same character.

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bayonne...oh, so close.
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2006, 08:54:42 PM »
I found the driving areas to be very generous.  I heard quite a bit of banter about how lush the fescue rough played this summer.  Having experienced this at Engineers, it is important to start with a good grow-in and then thin it out.  At least this approach worked well at Cherry Valley, is working at Engineers, and probably will work very well at Bayonne.  It would not surprise me if there was some tweaking over the years to come.  I don't feel as though it has that far to be truely great.  Among new courses, Friars Head is the ultimate, but there is no reason why Bayonne and Sebonack cannot join this elite category.

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bayonne...oh, so close.
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2006, 09:16:06 PM »
Steve:

You'll have to ask Alex what "an inch here and a foot there" means, it's his statement not mine.  But do not translate "very good" into "exceptional" on my behalf.  It's exceptional to you; I'll stick with very good and impressive.

The holes I liked least were the ones with a steep bank / "dunes" to one side and a steep drop on the other, such as #9.  Just doesn't fit the theme very well to me.  Lahinch actually has one of the only such holes which I've ever thought was great -- the par-4 ninth.  Come to think of it, the old 4th (now the 3rd I guess) has some of the same character.

Tom,

   Thanks...I missed the "foot here, inch there" argument. My translation was a case of "semantics." Very good on your scale, especially when used about a newly built course likely equals exceptional ("to rise above average, uncommon, being an exception") to architectually-inclined players (of which I've hardly been accused of ;)). I realize it's not the same to you.

  As for the steep-drop off holes, they may indeed feel awkward, but how else would/could you tackle the issue of "creating" significant elevation changes from a series of holes to another series all while respecting a routing intended to bare itself to a variety of wind directions? I can't imagine it is easy to swtich direction and gain or lose real elevation relative to the previous area. I'd be interested to learn of the variety of solutions.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith