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Ben Cowan-Dewar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Lawsonia-Kingbarns
« on: September 24, 2002, 08:08:13 AM »
In the past calendar month I went from the Mid-West to Scotland, but I have not had a chance to update yet.

I was thrilled to shoot across from Kohler to get a round in at Lawsonia with none other than Dick Daley and Shooter.
I went to the course without having read much of the discussion on the site and I was happier for it.

The first hole gives a sense of the unique architecture to come.  The Pete Dye sharp edges that many associate with the San Andreas hole at PGA West are evident here dating back to 1930.  The falloff to the left of the first green is incredibly severe; this photo is from back left.



The fourth is an interesting hole, a semi-redan, without the kicker slope.  The hole does have an extremely severe front bunker, unfortunately my picture does not capture that.



Six is a tremendous hole, with a green that is characteristic of the wild surfaces throughout.  As Dick pointed out, there used to be two aiming trees, which helped guide the player for the right portion of the green, depending on the pin position.  This helpful feature would be appreciated in particular because the massive tier that separates the two levels is difficult to negotiate.  Without a sense of the wonderful green, here is the approach.



Stunning how much it looks like Raynor at times.

The boxcar hole is great, intimidating from the tee and a fair size green to offset the danger short.

Ten is an incredibly difficult par three, a long hole (239 yards) with another severe green complex.

Fourteen is a little par three that felt a little out of place, played through the trees to a soft green.  Did not have the same links feel as the rest of the course.

I really liked fifteen and sixteen, both holes have great tee shots.

At this point it got dark, 18 seemed to be a good finisher, a good risk/reward finish.

I have commented on the Kohler courses at length before, but we had a great time there and I had more appreciation for the Irish course.  I am happy to hear they seem to be going walking-only next year.

My trip to Scotland was wonderful, I am going to try to capsulate my thoughts on the courses and will discuss more in detail later.

Turnberry Ailsa was wonderful.  Two weak opening holes, followed by a very strong course.  A great championship test and definitely the most beautiful course I played.  Very worthy, the holes in the dunes are as special as the ocean holes.
       
Kintyre – Played here first and am happy I did. Some very good holes, but overall the greens are too out of character with the UK and make the ground game difficult.  The man I was playing with was quite awed by the ocean holes, and that seemed to be the general consensus.
 
I thought the Turnberry hotel provided one of the best backdrops in golf.  

Gleneagles - Kings course is underrated.  I guess it is hard to choose a non-links course as one of Scotland's best, but it is good enough to qualify.  I liked it a lot, a good mix of holes, with a couple of really great ones.
 
Carnoustie - Like Oakmont, not pretty but an unbelievable test of golf.  Some of the most severe bunker placement I have ever seen.  Great fun, beat the hell out me, but I loved it.  Subtle charms throughout that I think would be exposed more over time.
 
Kingsbarns - Somewhat like Whistling Straits in its grandeur (I was at WS the week before, so perhaps that is why I draw the comparison.)  The course is wholly manufactured, but it actually works well.  Again stunningly beautiful and a very good test of golf, playing particularly firm, which is great news.  

The Dunhill is at Carnoustie, Kingsbarns and St. Andrews Oct. 3-6th, I am looking forward to seeing it. Pictures from Scotland will have to come at some other time.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Nick Kokonas

Re: Lawsonia-Kingbarns
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2002, 08:28:44 PM »
Love the site and love the Lawsonia comments as it is one of my midwest favorites which gets little or no press.

Please email me (any mid-west golf course afic.) who would enjoy area trips to unique courses.  I am a member at a private club reviewed on this site and would enjoy recipriocity at similar clubs.  Or just a jaunt to any Lawsonia type midwest gems.

-- Nick
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lawsonia-Kingbarns
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2002, 04:17:56 AM »
Lawsonia is indeed one of the "hidden gems."  Glad to see it getting such good reviews on GCA.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Ben Cowan-Dewar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lawsonia-Kingbarns
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2002, 07:36:55 AM »
Paul,
You helped guide me there, so I owe you a thank you.

Such a neat course and interesting to imagine what the average golfer would get from it.  With its location and cheap green fees, I am certain they get lots of non-archie types. :)

Hard to imagine though that even the average golfer would not understand the difference between really interesting architecture and an average course after playing here.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lawsonia-Kingbarns
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2002, 09:29:46 AM »
Terrific pix and descriptions.  These kinds of posts are what help make this a great site.

                          Jeff Goldman
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
That was one hellacious beaver.

Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lawsonia-Kingbarns
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2002, 08:26:52 AM »
Ben,
Thanks for the pixs and the reminders of a great afternoon in WI. with you, Dick and Jay.
Lawsonia is a gem, and I wonder how many of the golfers there know how good they've got it. In the state it's in now it is the perfect "whimiscal adventure" golf course, I think it's lacking in the examination aspects needed for a "championship" golf course. None the less I find it one of my favorite places anywhere to play.
If they ever decided to add a few back tees (and they really have the room to), and toughen the course up, it would probably rise in the rankings. I wouldn't change a thing though.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ben Cowan-Dewar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lawsonia-Kingbarns
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2002, 08:50:05 AM »
Shooter,
I agree that the two things that might hurt the course would be its lack of length (which you exposed) and the lack of variety in doglegs.  

Though while I would have thought this would be boring, I did not find the holes at Lawsonia redundant.

How do you think it compares to Raynor's work on Long Island?  Both positively and negatively?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lawsonia-Kingbarns
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2002, 09:24:06 AM »
Ben,
L&M are a real mystery to me. I don't understand how they are not appreciated more than they are. If their work were more exposed like CBM and SR's there is no doubt that we'd probably have Gib working on a book about them too.
Their product does have a real Raynor feel to it for sure, so much  so that I can't see any striking differences. The green work at Lawsonia and West Bend is a bit sharper than what I see at Creek or PRC, closer to what is at NGLA. I also haven't had enough experience with Langford to see any pattern of holes. I'm heading back up to West Bend on Saturday, I'll take some photos for you.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Daley

Re: Lawsonia-Kingbarns
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2002, 04:32:53 PM »
Ben:

Great to hear of your travels and experiences. Thanks for the prose and pics.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Daley

Re: Lawsonia-Kingbarns
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2002, 04:34:14 PM »
Ben:

Especially great news to read that Kingsbarns was presented as firm and fast.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ken Hemauer

Re: Lawsonia-Kingbarns
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2002, 08:22:20 PM »
Long time lurker - first time poster.  I noticed comments about West Bend CC, another Langford & Moreau design (at least the front nine).  I had the pleasure of playing this course growing up and would be interested in comments about the course.  I have read with interest the comments about Lawsonia and the removal of trees.  The front nine at West Bend has a great set of elevated, undulating greens, but lots of tree planting over the years is starting to take away the links feel that I think was intended.  The back nine was constructed at a different time by someone else as evidenced by the contrast in greens, elevated and undulating on the front and round and almost domed on the back.  By the way, a redesign of the 18th hole is nearing completion.  The hole was a rather non-descript, short par 4.  Arthur Hills was hired to do the work and has lengthened the hole and brought a pond into play on the second shot.  My hope is that the new green looks like a fit with the front nine, but my optimism is tempered based on what I have read on GCA.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lawsonia-Kingbarns
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2002, 06:21:18 AM »
Ken, I only toured West Bend in a cart one day.  However, from what I saw, the Langford Morreau nine is typical of much of the style found at Lawsonia, but just not apparently up to the overall level of variety and quality.  The second nine was first laid out by David Gill.  It is simply not in harmony with the L&M style.  It gives the course a schizophrenic feel to it.  The member I toured it with was excited to have Art Hills in to do the work and was hopeful that he would regrade and design a more simpathetic look to the courses original nine.  But, trees are the issue that most of these old courses can't seem to overcome.  Quic Qui Oc in Elkhart Lake is another example of this problem of trees compromising the playing quality of a similar classic in that same area of Wisconsin.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

THuckaby2

Re: Lawsonia-Kingbarns
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2002, 06:30:33 AM »
Careful, Dick - remember the lambasting I took for having the temerity to say a single word about a certain course in southern california that I just viewed from a cart... you need to play it at least 10 times to have a right to give any meaningful comment....

Sorry, couldn't resist.   ;)

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lawsonia-Kingbarns
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2002, 06:43:48 AM »
Could you define the meaning, of "meaningful" or the definition of "comment"?  No need to define lambasting in So Cal, I get that one real good!  ::) ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

THuckaby2

Re: Lawsonia-Kingbarns
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2002, 06:52:26 AM »
"meaningful" = acceptable, not subject to lambasting.

 ;)

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lawsonia-Kingbarns
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2002, 04:54:15 PM »
Ben:

So glad you enjoyed Lawsonia as much as I did! ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG