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JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Difficulty in maintaining firm and fast conditions
« Reply #50 on: November 03, 2006, 11:03:27 AM »
Bingo!

I think on this side of the pond the greatest obstacles are education and a changed perspective on the color of a well conditioned golf course.



Tom Paul,

I was not in any way complaining. I was criticizing you for not considering rough preparation in your Ideal Maintenance Meld. If you are trying to sell firm and fast, what is one of the main things to do? Make sure the results from a misjudged shot are not overly punished. One way to do this is to keep the rough at a manageable height. I say manageable because the weaker player must be able to advance the ball easily and the stronger player must lose a bit of control over their next shot. If you do not consider the consequences of this process you will lose some people. Everyone will love 50 yards of roll. But on your 5th hole that means balls will likely end up in the left rough, same with #7. If there is not a program to keep the rough manageable you will find people protesting your firm and fast. The same thing around the green. Make it playable, not easy. What can be done with a greens surrounds to keep them playable (not easy) for the higher handicapper while also providing challenge and interest to me?

Marc Haring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Difficulty in maintaining firm and fast conditions
« Reply #51 on: November 03, 2006, 12:56:53 PM »
It's funny though. The firmest greens I have ever encountered were at Eastlake, Atlanta on a wet February day.


Adrian.

I have got pictures of the whole nine now. I will get them onto a zip file and send them over or something. In the meantime, here's another pic that I'm sure Adrian could talk through if anyones interested.


Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Difficulty in maintaining firm and fast conditions
« Reply #52 on: November 03, 2006, 05:32:50 PM »
Marc and Adrian I do hope you'll tell us more and relate it to this thread. Did you discuss how firm everything would get in summer when designing these?  Also what tdo the greens look like?

A new course with A) 100yards wide fairways B) what looks like a blind tee shot over some unidentiifed old structure, well wonders will never cease.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Difficulty in maintaining firm and fast conditions
« Reply #53 on: November 03, 2006, 06:12:15 PM »
Marc and Adrian I do hope you'll tell us more and relate it to this thread. Did you discuss how firm everything would get in summer when designing these?  Also what tdo the greens look like?

A new course with A) 100yards wide fairways B) what looks like a blind tee shot over some unidentiifed old structure, well wonders will never cease.
This is a short hole, its about 155 yards from the normal tees, uphill with probably a 4 metre elavation, we are thinking of a back tee in about the position that picture is taken, it would probably be 200 from there. The 'structure' is an artificial wall made of a pale yellow stone about 3 metres inheight, the green is in front of this, the wall was an idea we tried, it may have turned out crap in which case we would have just scrapped the idea, but it looks quite nice, we may add some gorse about this wall, that will add some more colour, the deep green of the gorse and in the spring the yellow bloom. The gorse will also stop the 'idiot' from climbing up or down the wall, (h & s reasons). The green has some cute ledges and swings, pot bunker left and front centrally we sat a grassy bunker swale that just distorts the ball falling short of the green, without trying to unduly penalise the 24 handicapper. Marcs idea is to have some really wide fairways on a few of these holes some even merging with others, i like this. Two holes have option fairways dissected by bunkers where you can gamble on some length if you want to take on narrower/ guarded parts of the fairway.
We have drifted a bit off topic from the firmness issue, although definitely the course will be influenced more by the ground game/ firmness and obtaining the right position from the tee to negotiate a better route into the green, another hole has a redanish type green that Marc and I compromised on, Im not sure either of us have got exactly what we initially wanted, it will be intersting how this green performs, im not sure if a picture will quite show the contouring at this stage, but its certainly come out quite quirky.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Marc Haring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Difficulty in maintaining firm and fast conditions
« Reply #54 on: November 04, 2006, 05:31:06 AM »
The 9th green design concept was set in stone by Adrian a couple of years before construction if you’ll pardon the shameless pun. I think you need to appreciate that the area has a strong stone quarrying connection to provide building material for nearby Bath, firstly by the Romans and then by the Georgians. Bath GC and Kingsdown are two local courses that have holes played over or through quarries. Then of course Painswick is not that far away.

Actually Adrian, the back tee is in and it comes out at about 220 yards, which I think makes that front swale even better. You could really chase one up the hill and I dare say a couple of people will reason that a bounce off the wall could be an option.
Here is a pic from closer in.



The Redanish green is on #3 and I am pleased that Adrian forced the compromise. I think I was getting carried away with my naïve, idealistic persuit of golfclubatlas inspired quirk. But it must be said, this course is unlike many new developments these days.

Here’s a couple of pix of that 3rd green from the back and from the approach. Adrian insisted on extending the green over on the right side as it is played, whereas I was quite prepaired to leave it as a narrow and sharply sloping redan. I think the finished article has come out very well and maybe a good example of conflict leading to creativity.



And from the approach. The bunker left is a grassy hollow and is a good 6ft in depth. The green in true redan style is angled from right to left and although it doesn’t show much in these pictures, there is a lot of slope to it.



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