[TEPaul]

"After six or seven holes I was trying to put my finger on what it was that looked so artificial about the RTJ bunkering schemes. I think that was it."

Come on now, Bobzee, just try to tell me which of the mounds in those photos above (some of which aren't bunkering but some are) actually look like they had anything to do with a natural landform? The best you could say about most any of them is if they were natural landform shapes they were virulently tumorous natural landform shapes. I would strategically avoid them at all costs for fear of the risk of getting cancer if me or even my golf ball came into contact with one of them.  

[BCrosby]

TEP -

I see the mounds as the outlines of swollen, tumescent creatures lurking just beneath the surface in a dark nether world. Mess with them and you lose the hole, the match and you never eat lunch in Philadelphia again.

Bob      

[TEPaul]

Bobzee:

Swollen tumescent creatures lurking beneath the surface??

OK.

I was playing with a guy in the state amateur one time and about the 7th hole he told me that his golf balls have little men in them that crouch down in a squatting position and if he could manage to postion the ball just right and hit it right in the center of the club he would catch that little man in there right squarely in the middle of his ass and that little man in there would go leaping off the club in ecstatic glee and go screaming high and straight and long right down the center of the fairway.

I listened to all that and about half way down the fairway I turned to him and said;

"You're serious, aren't you?"

He looked at me with this ultra earnest expression on his face and said;

"I certainly am. It's the key to good golf for me."

[JESII]

More evidence of a Big World Theory.

Tell me Tom, did the rest of your group think it was curious at all for you to talk to yourself while walking down the fairway? Or did they just think it odd that you waited until #7 to make it a conversation?

[Adam Clayman]

Adam:

I really do hope those mounds in that photo you posted are piles of debris that've been piled for removal. Please tell me they are.  

They are what some of the old guys used to call haycocks and they don't belong on golf courses---never did---they belong on hay fields that have just been mown with the intention of removing them to barns and feeding the cattle and horses and pigs and other asundry swine.

If some architects are creating that kind of thing today obviously they haven't been reading their architectural histories particularly well.

I'm a big fan of renaissance architecture of various types and styles and forms but one most definitely needs to know where to draw the line on renaissance items.

Tom, Nope, can't tell you that. Those are the real deal. The course is in Tampa, Fl.

http://scotlandyards.com/

Really tests the BWT, don't it?

[TEPaul]

Where did I say the 7th hole was the first time I talked to the guy? I only said he told me about the little men in his golf balls at the 7th tee. I'd say I get to know strangers pretty dang fast for some guy to tell me nah, nah, nah stuff like that by the 7th hole. Actually I'm wrong, he told me that on the 13th tee at LuLu and we started on the 10th hole. I guess it wasn't a state amateur. I don't know what it was, Patterson Cup or somethng. Anyway after that revelation the guy became a pretty good friend ot mine. But little men in his golf ball who he had to line up correctly and catch right square in the ass to hit a good shot?? Would you really feel safe on the same highway with a guy like that?  

[TEPaul]

Well, Adam, I've got to admit that architect is really pushing the envelop. Only problem is he's pushing it in the wrong direction. But those things are nothing a front end loader couldn't fix in a few hours. I'd even recommend he dump them on Pat Mucci's golf course since he seems to be into mounds these days.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Actually, I've been into mounds for many years, dating back to the 60's.

A course that I'm very familiar with, circa 1927, is replete with debris mounds, interestingly dispersed around the golf course.

I find the use of mounds by the old timers fascinating.

As you know, those guys were highly efficient and frugal, as were the clubs when they were coming into existance.
Carting debris off site was expensive.
They figured out how to retain debris as an architectural feature close to the acquisition area.

If necessity is the mother of invention, these guys understood that and converted a negative into a positive in a highly efficient manner.

What I find fascinating is their integration with drainage patterns, the adding of tecture to the golf course and the injection of a form alien to the land, yet functional in the play of the game.

Perhaps my interest in them was fueled at an early age by going to the movies and seeing Jane Russell

[Andrew Thomson]

 

[TEPaul]

Andrew:

That's not golf course architecture, it's some kind of visual "wave" mechanism to relieve stress.

[Chris Kane]

TEPaul, stress most likely induced by the stupid amounts of money lost at the casino by golfers who play that course  

[Andrew Thomson]

Andrew:

That's not golf course architecture, it's some kind of visual "wave" mechanism to relieve stress.

It reminds me of a simpsons episode when Marge goes away and Bart, Lisa and Homer tidy the house by putting everything under the carpet, resulting in waves of rubbish as they traversed the living room  

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul, stress most likely induced by the stupid amounts of money lost at the casino by golfers who play that course.  

Chris:

In that case I suggest they build some real golf architecture and relieve the stress on their gamblers by just sending an army of hookers up to their rooms.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Greenside on #18 instead of sand.

Jeff  Todd,

The front of # 5 at Hollywood has a similar mound, not quite so high, guarding the right front of the green.

Lies on the downslope closest to the green are the most difficult.

Andrew

Those aren't debris mounds

Those are mounds produced via artistic license, rather than functional creations

[Dan Moore]

It seems that use of mounds has been relagtes in many cases to framing or creating seperation between holes.  Langford and Moreau used mounds throughtout there courses to create blindness or strategy.  Here is an example of the use of mounding for both purposes.

The drive is over the mounds to a blind landing zone
410 yd par 4


Closer view of the mounds


View from just past the mounds

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan, et. al.,

I wonder if one of the functions of mounds, prior to automated irrigation systems, wasn't to deflect golf balls toward or away from the intended target ?

Was their use diminished as the aerial game became more prevalent ?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat, that might be overthinking it. We still bury tree clearing debris and rocks in out of the way places, trying to avoid in play areas because the settle, and because drainage and irrigation lines are more likely to go through there and be a construction problem.

Looking at Ross bury mounds, such as shown in Golf Has Never Failed Me, I surmise that they were put in outside rough areas even back then, for similar reasons.

The photos Dan posted do not appear to me to be bury mounds. They look to be constructed as features, and have less than a 50% chance of having debris below them, IMHO.

[Dan Moore]

In the case of L&M the fairway mounds were most often used to present problems of blindness, partial blindness or depth perception issues.  There were also, with or without sand, used as a penalty for a misplaced or misdirected shot.  

L&M courses usually featured open fronts that would allow a ground game approach without mounds interfering.  

[Jeff_Brauer]

Dan,

BTW, are you sure those mounds are original L and M?  They look a bit regular compared to the LM mounds I have seen, and may have been added later.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Debris is one thing but I am having trouble getting past the the idiots driving the carts!  

Look back to see the tracks of the offending drivers.  Yikes!

[Dan Moore]

Jeff,

I have a photo of a scorecard from 1930's that has a drawing of the course and shows bunker in that spot.  There are some other bunkers on this course that have a similar appearance.  This particular course is very untouched over time.  So while it is hard to be sure I think they probably are original.  

Here is another example from the same course.  These are similar to those on #2 at Lawsonia and are only 50 yds from the tee creating a blind drive.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Dan,

I was comparing them to the simiar "short" former bunkers at Wakonda, which has steeper banks and tends to have the mounds on the outsides of the bunker curves, not the inside.  Overall, these are smoother than the Wakond shapes.

Of course, it could have been the shaper, or LM could have been further along in their career and/or trying a different look.

[Dan Moore]

Jeff,  

This course was built 5 years after Wakonda and 2-3 years before Lawsonia.   The mounding throughout the entire course while similar is different than Lawsonia's.   I need to see Wakonda.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Has the advent of carts been responsible for the demise of mounds within the corridors of play, especially steep mounds ?

[Mike Hendren]

From Ran's profile, Ross at Holston Hills:



Mike

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