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Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ruddy Counter Attacks
« Reply #75 on: November 01, 2006, 04:07:04 PM »

With the competition to attract golfers at perhaps an all-time high, I would think that "hyping" a course is a necessity save for an elite few. I have no problem with that, as long as they are truthful. There is a fine line between successful marketing and con.
Quote
Good point about truth Dan. Ive notice quite a lot of advertisments for courses in the UK that say they have U.S.G.A greens when in fact they dont.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

tonyt

Re:Ruddy Counter Attacks
« Reply #76 on: November 01, 2006, 04:36:27 PM »
This thread seems simple to me. The use of "con" and the suggested tone of Pat over-promoting both seem to imply that he or others involved with TEC are not acting in good faith.

Defend Tiger's criticisms all you like, but an attack on whether someone's actions are genuine is not merely criticism. And half the people defending him would be FURIOUS if they were attacked on here regarding a lack of acting in honest faith.

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ruddy Counter Attacks
« Reply #77 on: November 01, 2006, 04:38:26 PM »
This thread seems simple to me. The use of "con" and the suggested tone of Pat over-promoting both seem to imply that he or others involved with TEC are not acting in good faith.

Defend Tiger's criticisms all you like, but an attack on whether someone's actions are genuine is not merely criticism. And half the people defending him would be FURIOUS if they were attacked on here regarding a lack of acting in honest faith.
Tony,

You have hit the nail on the head.  As has Rich, I think some sort of explanation from Tiger as to why he does not like the course would be only fair.  As well as an explanation about the word 'con'.
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ruddy Counter Attacks
« Reply #78 on: November 01, 2006, 04:39:58 PM »
Maybe just a straight apology would be the thing to do.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ruddy Counter Attacks
« Reply #79 on: November 01, 2006, 05:02:43 PM »
Exactly Carey,

I wish for Pat's sake that would happen.  He is such a great guy and the kind of person that models exactly what golf should be all about.  I hope for the apology just to ease his pain.  

Sean Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ruddy Counter Attacks
« Reply #80 on: November 01, 2006, 05:11:15 PM »
Tony,

I could not agree more.  I would be extremely displeased if I were alleged to have conned someone.

I was not a huge fan of the course but it came at the end of a long trip and I have largely reserved any criticism of the course because a) I played it only once b) I fear my mood may have counted against it.

I would say one thing regarding the course.  The response I received from the staff (I beleive Pat's family) could not have been more welcoming.  And not in the "we're trying to sell you something way", more like the greeting a rarely seen friend would receive.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ruddy Counter Attacks
« Reply #81 on: November 01, 2006, 05:58:24 PM »
I've never been a fan of asking someone to apologize. Then, if they do, it just seems hollow, and if they don't, it seems even worse. In some ways, it seems a power play on the part of the offended.

Let's be honest here - we all throw around the bulls--- quite a bit about golf courses, and many other things as well. We've all offended and been offended. The best policy for all of us to take is to try not to take things personally, more like we're all friends letting things fly over a beer or three at the 19th.

It all boils down to trust. If someone is a friend, we understand both his words and his tone, even if it's over the internet. If someone is a stranger, we tend to think the worst.

A wise man (read:orthopedic surgeon) once said, "I never met a stiff who was into architecture." Let us all try to take that to heart.

P.S. Rich does have a good point of people explaining their points, however. Again, that's good advice we can all take to heart.

 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ruddy Counter Attacks
« Reply #82 on: November 01, 2006, 06:02:08 PM »
I've never been a fan of asking someone to apologize. Then, if they do, it just seems hollow, and if they don't, it seems even worse. In some ways, it seems a power play on the part of the offended.

Just like a guy who, in Heinz-sight, wouldn't be in such a pickle had he apologized without being asked (or told!) to..... ;D

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ruddy Counter Attacks
« Reply #83 on: November 01, 2006, 06:04:20 PM »
How long have you been waiting for that one?

 :)

It was worth the wait.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

TEPaul

Re:Ruddy Counter Attacks
« Reply #84 on: November 01, 2006, 07:08:52 PM »
Ted Kramer said:

"After that experience I have tried my best to remember that even though there is a bit of distance between people when communicating in this fashion, it is still important remember that oher real people can be affected by what we write."

Ted:

Good point and consequently I hereby apologize to everyone I've ever insulted on this website (excluding Pat of course) and to anyone I ever will insult in the future (excluding Pat, of course), and I hereby promise to be a more considerate humanoid to all other humanoids (excluding Pat of course) for all time to come.

;)

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ruddy Counter Attacks
« Reply #85 on: November 01, 2006, 07:16:30 PM »
Tom,

My mother always used to say, "don't make promises that you can't keep!"
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ruddy Counter Attacks
« Reply #86 on: November 01, 2006, 08:09:24 PM »
Ted Kramer said:

"After that experience I have tried my best to remember that even though there is a bit of distance between people when communicating in this fashion, it is still important remember that oher real people can be affected by what we write."

Ted:

Good point and consequently I hereby apologize to everyone I've ever insulted on this website (excluding Pat of course) and to anyone I ever will insult in the future (excluding Pat, of course), and I hereby promise to be a more considerate humanoid to all other humanoids (excluding Pat of course) for all time to come.

;)


And after re-reading what I wrote, I hereby promise to proofread my comments a little better before I post :-\

-Ted

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ruddy Counter Attacks
« Reply #87 on: November 01, 2006, 08:28:50 PM »
Group hug!
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Alfie

Re:Ruddy Counter Attacks
« Reply #88 on: November 01, 2006, 08:45:38 PM »
Tom Paul,

I'm deeply offended by your last post and think you should apologise immediately to Mr Mucci as I know he is too much of a gentleman to ask for the apology himself.  ;)

I think George summed up this dilemna of a post quite admirably !

Glad to see you are a man of words (some wise, some ?) Mr Ruddy.
You wont remember me, but my brother Harry and myself convinced a bus load of Scots to play your European course way back in the early nineties. The experience nearly caused a riot when when our hungover group (Biggar "36" Club) arrived at TEC to find a dry house. Still, you did have plenty of glasses, albeit empty, for the carry oot our bus driver was ordered to find in the locality !
We all had a great day and thoroughly enjoyed your course even though there was obviously still "thing's" to be done. The highlight of my day was coming face to face with that famous lumberjack of a gentleman - Mr Eammon Darcy ! To witness that swing from only four feet was, for me, truly amazing  :) A great golfer and a lovely person to meet !
However. When I got home that weekend I thought it would be "awfully NICE" of me if I took the time to write your most famous self a wee letter of thanks and a load of that back slapping crap in support of your efforts. Guess what.....I'm still waiting for a two line acknowledgement in a wee broon envelope with an Eire 2nd class stamp for ma collection  :'(

Oh well..... just thought I'd share my nostalgic moment ( a form of rollback  ;)) while you wait for an apology from Tiger.

Smashing pics of TEC, BTW !

Move on Pat, and talk golf. That's what this great bunch of plonk...eh,, guys want to hear from you. (I think ?)

sincere regards,

Alfie Ward.




TEPaul

Re:Ruddy Counter Attacks
« Reply #89 on: November 01, 2006, 10:59:00 PM »
"Tom,
My mother always used to say, "don't make promises that you can't keep!""

Ah, come on Gar. Didn't your mother also tell you that everything in life is relative.   ;)

Jason Blasberg

Re:Ruddy Counter Attacks
« Reply #90 on: November 01, 2006, 11:19:48 PM »
Phew that was taxing to read all that after an early morning of buying minerals, morning of approving Go Zone bonds for Hurricane rebuilding projects in New Orleans and an afternoon of planning a fundraiser for the LSU golf team. The bar looks appealing but me thinks an hour at the gym is the better path.

Tiger:

As if there was any doubt "You The Man!!!"  ;) ;)

Pat Ruddy

Re:Ruddy Counter Attacks
« Reply #91 on: November 02, 2006, 05:28:37 AM »
Hello Mr Ward
I remember you.

You will see that some things change very little .... dealing with alcohol problems back then and vitriol problems today.  Golfers can be quite an amazing bunch!

Things haven't changed a lot since the time in Musselburgh when a group of players celebrating after the game in a local Inn threw a waiter out an upstairs window. When the manager asked them what he should do about the waiter he was told "Put him on the bill!"

One thing that has changed is our links.  I don't mind saying it is much better now and very, very good. It would be nice to see you back again and you would be made welcome as ever and would probably enjoy a few of the golf experiences awaiting you today. We even have a modest supply of alcohol nowadays but we don't push it..... in fact we don't push anything and don't have an hotel or housing or any plans for that kind of promotional stuff ... just golf.
Sorry for not writing back to you way when .....   Please take this as a double hello and thanks for calling!
Pat Ruddy

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ruddy Counter Attacks
« Reply #92 on: November 02, 2006, 07:04:56 AM »

TEPaul

Re:Ruddy Counter Attacks
« Reply #93 on: November 02, 2006, 07:42:56 AM »
"Things haven't changed a lot since the time in Musselburgh when a group of players celebrating after the game in a local Inn threw a waiter out an upstairs window. When the manager asked them what he should do about the waiter he was told "Put him on the bill!""

Jeeesus, is that a classic (I'm still laughing five minutes later). They say you need to get humour wherever you can find it and I just found a ton of it in that remark.

Thanks Pat.

(That's Pat Ruddy---not Pat Mucci. Pat Mucci has done zero, zilch, zip on here that he deserves to be thanked for ;) Matter of fact, Pat Mucci should be thrown out of the upstairs window of the Treehouse. You can put him on my bill ).

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ruddy Counter Attacks
« Reply #94 on: November 02, 2006, 09:30:57 AM »
Welcome Pat Ruddy.  

You personally extended a warm welcome to my group when we visited your fine links just over a year ago on a windy Saturday in early September.  I must say it is a fine site for golf with the dunes and views of the sea and a stern test of golf as well.  There are  some wonderful golf holes and we enjoyed the "modern quirk."  In particular I enjoyed the splendid 3rd.  

I look forward to returning someday.  

Dan Moore
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ruddy Counter Attacks
« Reply #95 on: November 02, 2006, 10:05:57 AM »
 Mr. Ruddy,


    What changes have you made to the course in the last ten years and what was your thinking?
AKA Mayday

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ruddy Counter Attacks
« Reply #96 on: November 02, 2006, 12:22:08 PM »


One thing that has changed is our links.  I don't mind saying it is much better now and very, very good.
Pat,

I have a question about the above sentence.  To some that could sound like hype or even arrogance.  I have never played the course and therefore cannot have an opinion.

Being a fellow architect I have empathy for your feelings for your course (which is similar to protecting your own child)but...could you explain why the course is "very, very good".

What other courses would you class as very, very good.  Is it in the same class as Lahinch or Doonbeg or Ballybunion or Seapoint?

All the best,

Brian.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2006, 12:23:05 PM by Brian Phillips »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Pat Ruddy

Re:Ruddy Counter Attacks
« Reply #97 on: November 02, 2006, 12:36:36 PM »
Hello Mr Malone,
It would be difficult to give a comprehensive answer in this medium.
However, a few thoughts ....
(a) We have sought to keep abreast of the evolution of the game and my own evolution as a practitioner of course design.  Both have been rapid and demanding.
(i) The game of golf has changed a lot since we opened with a links measuring 6,792-yards at Christmas 1992.  Our championship tees, we hosted the Irish Men's Amateur (and the ladies' also) this year, have now slipped back to 7,355-yards with some consequential revisions of the medal and forward tees.  Our ability to strike a hugely wider variety of links set-ups has exploded accordingly.
(ii) My own knowledge and taste continue to evolve and will do so onwards .... so, there have been and will be what a view as improvements always onwards and in this respect it is rewarding to stay with the task over so many years and have the required freedoms.
(b) Hazard strategy has been reviewed.  Take bunkering where we started-out with just 60 carefully placed pits.  As the game changed this had to change.  It would not do just to move these 61 about, leaving the spaces they had occupied empty, so we have added 61 more.   Consideration has been given to have these function in all respects for as many golfers as possible, playing off varied tees in varied weathers.   Not too easy!
Of course, we have then gone with our railway tie look to be able to show the locations of the hazards (which have to be sunken on a links in order to stop them from blowing away), to add bold definition and gain some intimidation factor.
(c) The much criticised pond on fairway 18 is gone. The purists would not accept water on a links even though the first such in golf was on the first fairway at St. Andrews.
It took years to figure how an irishman could hold his water against this criticism and I thank Jean van de Velde and Carnoustie for the solution .... our pond has trasformed into a meandering burn retaining the hazard factor (indeed, enhancing it) while making previous critics happy ... it isn't the water that bothered them as much as the shape of it!
(D) Not to be boring, lets cut short to conditioning.  Ireland suffered a major drought in 1995 and all links were set-back severely. We installed fairway irrigation after that and have chosen to stay green. We have a policy of keeping short and fast to the extent that visitors even from finer clubs worldwide have praised what they find in terms "your fairways are as good as/better than our greens at home." Of course, if we wish, we can go as brown as one might wish in three days at anytime March-November.  Meantime, it is nice to avoid the worst traumas of deep divot holes, which will not grow back in drought conditions, and weeds which thrive when grasses are stressed.
(E) Our greens have been matured to an acceptable international level and we are pleased with this.


There have been nuanced changes to greens, shaping changes to fairways and so on.    
Our members are gracious and happy.  Our guests are substantially ditto.
We do everything possible to satisfy our reason for being ... (a) Happy golf for oneself and family; (b) happy golf for members; (c) happy golf for our guests with whom we are happy to share our good fortune providing they do not assume a licence to abuse us; and, as things have evolved (d) to continue to pursue improvements of design and presentation  to see how far we can go towards excellence.

This is offered as a reply to your query. Not to seek advancement as where we are is satisfactory without that.
Thank you for your query.  I would be happy to answer any supplementary questions in private in order to avoid annoying others.
Warmest regards.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ruddy Counter Attacks
« Reply #98 on: November 02, 2006, 12:50:03 PM »
Great post, thanks for sharing all of that.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Pat Ruddy

Re:Ruddy Counter Attacks
« Reply #99 on: November 02, 2006, 01:00:07 PM »
Hello Mr Phillips
I don't think I can be taken as arrogant from what I write.
Some people, quite outspoken people themselves, seem very sensitive when they hear a party make a clear statement of belief and start banging-on evocative labels such as hype and arrogance!
I don't take you as arrogant for writing on your Niblick Design site-----"Graeme Webster and Brian Phillips are two of the most imaginative golf course architects in the business today".  The pictures of your work on that site are quite lovely and suggest you are right!
To answer your question in part .... I think I have learned a thing or two since my first design in 1971  and when given a good site I am good enough not to mess it up completely. I have seen a lot of golf, played a lot of golf, worked a lot of golf and I know good when I see it.  I also respect the judgement and truth of some of the finer gentle persons in the game and in my life, some great champions included, who are not shy to tell me when they think I am wrong but kind enough with encouragement when they perceive good.
Who would I compare to?  I have always aspired to be as good as possible and merit a place at the top table.  Nothing wrong with that.
Maybe you will come and see and share a cup of tea .... and you tell me if I should leave the table and wash the dishes!
Give a call and come on anytime.  I would love to meet you.
Warmest regards.
 

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