[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn,

The issue is Tiger called The European Club a "con". I think Pat Ruddy is justified in seeking an explanation for that. And Pat should be the one to determine when an apology has been given, not you or I.


Just a guess, but I think LoLo is a misinterpretation of of the internet slang lol[/i]. Just a guess.

I will go along with that, but I don't understand any of this, I am sorry.

[David Wigler]

Will this counter-attack create a hesitancy on our group to offer up less than positive remarks on golf course architecture
of favored members of the clan? I hope not.

I have not been a fan of Tehama G.C. here in Carmel and I am not looking foward to the day when I see Clint.... and he asks me to make his day.

Bob

Bob,

I do not think so.  Years ago, I wrote my honest opinion of Quail Crossing and Tom Doak got incredibly offended.  Although the vitriol was not this bad, it certainly did not deter me from offering honest criticism, where I felt it was needed.  

Frankly I would love Art Hills to join this DG and defend some of the work of his that I have criticised.  Likewise, I would take a day off work to enjoy the show if Tom Fazio or Rees ever joined this DG and ripped into the many here who take IMO unnecessary and unwarranted shots at them.  

Certainly Jeff Brauer and others have felt the need to defend themselves on this site at times.  The only person I can think of who left us permanently becuase he did not like the criticism was Ron Whitten.  The treehouse is full of strong personalities and I think it is simply a valuable lesson to remember that someone may eventually read what you write and take offense.  That is not a warning to be less than honest, just to not pile on (A warning that many times, I could have heeded better).

[Tom Huckaby]

Dave W. is wise, as always.  Methinks that sums it up well.  No, rebuke from the architect himself is never going to hold anyone back here... in fact some may even relish that, as a way of getting attention and their 15 seconds of fame in a very strange way....

I believe what might hold some back is the strong rebuke from followers of particular architects.... say something against Doak or C&C or for Fazio and one gets read the riot act swiftly and sternly all too often... thus making it not worth the hassle.  No?

[Jack_Marr]

I certainly haven't been conned into loving the European Club. I love it because I enjoy playing there, and nobody tricked me into it.

I've never seen the course advertised on TV,but very few courses are, over here anyway.

Pat, what are the chances of the European Club holding a professional event, such as the Irish Open?

[Garland Bayley]

I have been following this a little. I seems to me that Tiger is perfectly fine in saying he does not like the golf course and Pat Ruddy should accept that. Where Tiger gets into a little trouble is making the charge of over promotion, unless he has specific facts that he can present to support his allegation. Again, if the facts are true facts (this being the political season we are in the midst of hearing a lot of untrue facts) Pat should accept that. However, if Tiger has no or insufficient facts concerning the over promotion, then IMO Tiger should say he is sorry.

[David Stamm]

Bob, in my brief experience with this DG, I don't think we need to worry about everyone here holding back w/ opinions.

I think sometimes we will get critical about certain architects work based on one experience we have of that architect and really have not played enough of that archietcts work to  form an educated opinion. I know I'm guilty of that sometimes, but I'm learning. If a particular course an architect has done is not to your liking, obviously that doesn't mean his courses across the board are the in the same category.

Mr. Ruddy, it's great to have you here and welcome. I think it was PT Barnum who said you can't please all of the people all of the time. While it's debateable Tiger's choice of forum for giving your course the heave ho, he is entitled to his opinion. But rest assured, there are plenty more who seem to laud your course than lambaiste it.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Pat, the course is what it is and many people play it each year and form their opinion. I have no doubt the course is liked and enjoyed by many people worldwide including a great many people on GCA. I am guessing you have a great many golfers who are repeat customers as well. As I noted and you took as a negative, if I lived in the area I would be one of those people. I have no interest in continuing this discussion with you. This will be my last post on this subject. My position is that amoung the high profile links courses in Ireland, TEC is overrated. I also think it is hyped as well. There is a difference between promotion and hype. There is nothing I have seen or read to make me feel any different.That does not mean it is not a good or even very good course. Please note I have said that as well. I am sorry for whatever unhappyness my opinions have brought to you. Naturally, I would chose another word besides con in my comparison with Waterville, which I also consider overrated by those in the rating business. My point was and would still be if it were to come up again, the TEC is more overrated than Waterville. Again, both are good golf courses which I would play as often as possible is I lived near them. Both are more fun and better tracks than my home club in Louisiana. Jack Marr is a wonderful man who always puts the courses of Ireland in their best light. He does not get personal about it though. I hope you will drop this and enjoy this site for all the great things it brings to us all. As they say Halloween is over now and time to get back to work. I will treat this round of posts as tricks rather than treats. I do hope to have the treat of meeting you one day and playing a round of golf together, sharing our mutual love and passion for golf architecture.

[TEPaul]

"Will this counter-attack create a hesitancy on our group to offer up less than positive remarks on golf course architecture
of favored members of the clan? I hope not."

Bob:

No, it will not. This "counter-attack" will create a far better dynamic on here. It will create an atmosphere where if someone is going to say something they will come to realize they may have to defend what they say or if they can't---then admit they can't.

This kind of counter-attack should create more intellectual honesty on here and a more edifying discussion group.

Sure, it may get hotter in the kitchen this way but you know what they say---if you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen.

This website, in my opinion, should be like a Friday night in the best saloon in Dodge City. Dynamics sould reign. If you're gonna shoot your mouth off, which is just fine in my opinion, just be prepared to defend and explain yourself and what you said or you run the risk of getting gunned down.

In the end this should do two benefiical things on here;

1. Create greater intellectual honesty and a far more informative discussion group, and,

2. Make Pat Mucci get shot full of so many holes, in a week's time he will end up looking like a piece of Swiss cheese.

[Bill_McBride]

Will this counter-attack create a hesitancy on our group to offer up less than positive remarks on golf course architecture
of favored members of the clan? I hope not.

I have not been a fan of Tehama G.C. here in Carmel and I am not looking foward to the day when I see Clint.... and he asks me to make his day.

Bob

Just keep in mind, Bob -- a man has to know his limitations.

[ForkaB]

John

I, for one, think you should tell us why you are so negative about the European Club, not just that you are.  That would be the honorable thing to do, IMHO.  If you cannot articulate your feelings, then admit it, as TEP suggests above.

Slainte

Rich

[Dan Kelly]

I don't think we need to worry about everyone here holding back w/ opinions.

If that were only true!

This place would make Dodge City look like a convention of pacifists.

[TEPaul]

Have you all noticed yet that there's something of a phenomenon about the Internet itself that pretty much just kills most everyone's superego? I think it's obviously because you aren't there in person to actually see, hear and feel the consequences.

Only problem is, I know where most all of you cats live.  

[Garland Bayley]

...
2. Make Pat Mucci get shot full of so many holes, in a week's time he will end up looking like a piece of Swiss cheese.
...

And here I thought the reason all shots fired at Pat Mucci since I joined the board missed, because he was already a very airy bit of Swiss cheese and shots were just passing through.  

[Ted Kramer]

I had an experience on this website a few months ago that I learned a lot from. I spoke very harshly about Twisted Dune after a round there. While I don't think that I said anything that I didn't truely feel, I did say things that I NEVER WOULD HAVE SAID to Mr. Struthers face. I wouldn't have lied to Archie and told him I loved the course had we been skeaking face to face, but I would have shown a lot more respect for him and his work, stating my opinions in a much more restrained manner.

After that experience I have tried my best to remember that even though there is a bit of distance between people when communicating in this fashion, it is still important remember that oher real people can be affected by what we write.

I don't think that we need to lie to one another, and love everyone and everything, but I do think that there can and should always be a gentlemanly way of expressing negative feelings.

I failed to my present myself like a gentleman once, and apolgized. I hope that I can look back in time and say that I learned my lesson and didn't make the same mistake twice.

And Tiger, just for the record, I'm not making any judgements about you, what you've written, or your character . . .I'm only offering my feelings about things of this nature based on personal experience.

-Ted

[Gary Daughters]

GCA, The Western.. if only.

With Michelle Wie as Miss Kitty

[John Kavanaugh]

I will speak to any of you to your face exactly how I do here...I don't understand why it is still allowed to post under a fake name like Tiger.

We all owe Pat Ruddy a great debt for exposing a paper critic for what he is/was..and I love John (Tiger)..

[Pat Ruddy]

Tiger
'Tis hard to swallow words.  
But if you could just take one big gulp and withdraw the word CON with apologies for using it we could go on and have that game .... maybe for the Bernhardt Scalp or the Ruddy Scalp!
In fact, I would then begin to believe the nice things that  your friends say about you.

You are entitled to like, dislike or even hate my links but you don't have to convert such a feeling into a years' long campaign with the CON cherry on top.

It has been interesting to note the many responses and I am grateful that, at least, I am not in a minority of one.

I hope the man who suggested privately that I should have dealt with this privately will understand that I had little choice as my reputation as a designer, the worth of my links and ultimately my character were being knocked about in public. This had to be challenged in public.

Gentlemen, please, talk away about anything you wish but please keep it civil.   I held my peace over years of baiting and will do so again.  In fact, I listen to analyses (a nicer and kinder  term than criticisms) intently all the time and rather enjoy debates even when I feel a little bruised.  

If I can contribute anything I will but I would not presume to know a lot that would be new or of use to you.  

Just one thing, the Fast and Firm issue has been mentioned.  We can go fast and firm as much as you like in just three days any Summer if we so choose .... then the complaints set in to the effect that it is unfair that the ball bounces into such deep bunkers, such deep rough and "perfect approaches" get punished.  It is impossible to please'm all all the time .... so I tend to please myself (which is a bit of an indulgence, but then I will live only once and I had better get on with it) knowing that many other people will share my taste for shots off grass rather than off bare sand.
It is not long ago that Horace Hutchinson advised the golfer with a naughty putter to get down on his hunkers "keeping the ball between you and the hole and select a particular daisy over which to putt!" try that daisy covered green, a great aid to putting, at your club and see how old ideas will be embraced, even the ideas of one of the greatest champions of them all.
It is not long ago, either, (maybe 40 years) since I lost a ball in mid-fairway at Portmarnock as the 2" canopy formed by a perfect carpet of daisies provided perfect camouflage.
I like to think of a golf links somewhat as a grand piano (links tend to be bigger and more robust and versatile than parkland) capable of yielding a lot of magical tunes limite donly by the imagination and the skill of those who care for them and of those who care to play them in a humble but adventurous spirit.
God Bless You, Tiger.  
Your friend, Pat.
 

[Kirk Gill]

My question is - why should a golf course architect be criticized for "hyping" a course? Aren't golf courses businesses, like any other, that need customers to survive? Perhaps there are those who consider it to be "ungentlemanly" to actually stoop to promotion, but I don't really understand that attitude, as someone who does not work within the golf industry. Could someone educate me on this one?

[John Kavanaugh]

Kyle,

If you hype a course by allowing one group of critics play for free or have access and shut the other group out you are asking for problems....You figure out which group.

[BCrosby]

Pat -

Very good post.  

I hope that your original post and the exhanges that followed will remind all of us to pay more attention to the public and the private at GCA. What started out years ago as a little group that wanted to talk among themselves about golf architecture has somehow morphed into a virtual broadcasting network.

That has consequences for how we talk about things. This thread is a great object lesson in that. Perhaps we have to go through these little traumas to move this site on to the next level. If so, perhaps this has been worth it.  

Bob

[Tommy Williamsen]

The dilemma as stated in most of these post is not that everyone should refrain from  expressing their opinions.  It is that the difference between being mature and merely adult is the ability to express an opinion without hurting another.  
The free expression of ideas carries with it responsibilty.  It is one thing to evalutate and disagree with an idea, thought, or in this case a golf course.  It is another thing to attack someone on a personal level.

I have felt that in recent months the discussion on this board has been on a higher plane.  For that I am grateful.  

[John Kavanaugh]

It is that the difference between being mature and merely adult is the ability to express an opinion without hurting another.  

Did you just call Tiger (John) immature...that is hurtful.

[Tommy Williamsen]

John the gun was not aimed.

[Adrian_Stiff]

It was actually somebody posting something that I considered 'not nice' about one of my golf courses that started me to visit this forum/site regularly. I can see Pat Ruddy's hurt in this. Con is quite a strong word this side of the pond, if you are an honest person that is a very hard word to take. I personally have heard nothing but praise for TEC. I'm sure some people dont mean things quite they way they are 'typed' sometimes, and the word hype in some ways is more likened to "the marketing of the product was fantastic". Sometimes if people keep saying you must go and see that film etc its great, it has so much more to live up to, the PAR is kinda raised. I played Pebble Beach and I was dissapointed, half a dozen great holes and a lot of holes that could be anywhere, they weren't bad holes really but I just expected more. I guess its in most peoples world top 10 though.

[Dan_Callahan]

I was just reading that Sony plans to spend $150 million to market the Playstation 3. Think there will be some "overhype" involved? And yet, if the product is as wildly successful as the PS2, they will probably win ad campaign of the year.

With the competition to attract golfers at perhaps an all-time high, I would think that "hyping" a course is a necessity save for an elite few. I have no problem with that, as long as they are truthful. There is a fine line between successful marketing and con.

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