[Patrick_Mucci]

F&F is a sliding scale.  Folks do what they can.  

Are you telling me that in general folks do what they can (within reason) to "encourage" faster courses - even in FL and AZ?  

If they are, fair enough.

Sean,

At GOLF clubs like Pine Tree, Seminole and Boca Rio they're certainly striving for F&F.

And, I'm sure that there are others.

As to residential communities that have golf courses, they're a different breed.   Many have priorities that involve planting  flowers and trees, and, creating nice water features, especially with fountains and/or waterfalls.

From June through September, Mother Nature doesn't permit F&F in Southern Florida

[Adrian_Stiff]

One of the problems with firm fast conditions is 95% of golfers do not like it. GCA 'errs are in that unique 5% of wanting puritty in golf, but it is a minority. Panderring to the 26 handicapper who cant stop his 3 iron is not the answer of course, but ALL golf courses are business's to some degree and displeasing the 95% wont be good.
From a UK perspective we are not really in control of our weather at any time other than the winter when we know largely it is going to be wet. In a Brtish Summer, 2 weeks without rain is quite rare, fairways like we saw at Hoylake only occurr every few years and there is not much that be done if the heavens open and green it all up.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Adrian Stiff,

With golfers spending a fortune to buy clubs that hit the ball farther, why would 95 % of them be opposed to hitting the ball farther, vis a vis F&F conditions ?

[TEPaul]

"One of the problems with firm fast conditions is 95% of golfers do not like it."

Adrian:

I would definitely not endorse a remark like that. The truth is about 95% of American golfers don't even know what really good F&F is on a golf course. How would they, most everyone over here has never really seen it or experienced it? It is just unbelievable that this entire country wiped out the ground game over time without even understanding or really noticing what they were doing or why.

My experiences in the last couple of years tell me that with memberships on courses that have gone to dedicated programs of intelligent F&F conditions and playability it's roundly popular with pretty much entire memberships. In theory they may not endorse it but let them play their courses with it and just about everyone tends to say things like: "Where has this golf course been for the last fifty years?"

[wsmorrison]

Tom Paul,

I received a phone call last night from the Swedish-German man of many voices from the other side of our state.  He wants to know why you aren't out there telling everyone about the Forsenagle instrument for measuring fairway bounce and roll.  Your royalties are in jeopardy.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom Paul,
You have to admit, as much as many of us here want the ball to bounce when it hits the green, that 95% number from Adrian is probably pretty accurate.  Run out on fairways is another matter, but when it comes to the greens, sad to say, most golfers want them soft.  I've sat in many grounds meetings (at my own club and at others) and listened to people complain that their wedge shots were not holding the greens and something had to be done about it.  

[TEPaul]

Mark Fine:

And that is PRECISELY WHY I make such a distinction as I do between fairway LZs, approaches and green surfaces!!!

If one does not do that, for some reason most everyone, and apparently including you, think everyone is just talking about greens and their degree of firmness.

Frankly, there is no real reason not to have fairly receptive green surface for general play. At least that does accomodate grandma and her fellow travelers.

The important thing to note is that grandma and her fellow travelers can use the roll on the LZs  and the firmness in the approaches to play the ball to the green on the ground and other than an aerial one, if they want to.

But the deal is if you want to get the attention of good players enough to even think about using the ground game bounce in option the only possible way to do that is to dial down the reliablity of their aerial option directly onto green surfaces. To do that you need a firmness on the greens that just lightly dents to a really well struck 9-iron, for instance, of a first class player.

It's just amazing to me to see how even people who should know this stuff by now still get lost in and totally fixated on the component parts---eg basically get lost in the forest for the individual trees, so to speak.

It's just ain't that complex.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom Paul,
I understand the difference.  My pet peeve is approaches.  Firm greens and firm approaches add so much to the game especially on older designs.  Firm greens and soft approaches is probably the worst combination.  You also have to remember that probably 90% (give or take) of all courses don't have irrigation systems that allow independent control of all these areas.  That makes a big difference.
Mark

[JESII]

And that is PRECISELY WHY I make such a distinction as I do between fairway LZs, approaches and green surfaces!!!

Frankly, there is no real reason not to have fairly receptive green surface for general play. At least that does accomodate grandma and her fellow travelers.

What is this crap? Firm and fast is not for the sole benefit of the top players. There may be a certain amount of understanding required to appreciate it, but that understanding is not reserved for the low single digits. Prepping a course so the fairways run 50 yards and the greens hold 3 woods does not elevate the golf experience. If the greens are not going to be firm, or at least hopefully firm, than what's the point of anything else? Firm fairways may make it difficult to get into the proper position for an approach, but if the green is soft proper position is not required. I'm disappointed Tom.

Education and a spine are what's needed to convert a membership. Once the membership is converted you need a superintendent ready, willing and able to do it, just give him some rope because it's not like flipping a switch.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Im thinking from a more UK perspective on this one. Firm and fast conditions would more relate to the green and the green area this side of the pond. So the point I was trying to make with '95% don't like' was it makes the ball hard to control and keep on the green. Many golfers think if at anystage a ball touches the green during flight/an approach shot it has a god given right to remain on the putting green.
UK budgets to maintain golf courses are often just a fraction of American ones, very few of our courses have irrigation on fairways, we have to rely on the sky dictacting to firm and fast on our fairways.

[TEPaul]

Sully:

Come on, you of all people should know what I'm talking about. If a golf course's green surface firmness is set up with what I call a really Ideal Maintenance Meld for very good players it will produce both percieved and also very real problems for others.

There is no reason at all to alter the firmness of "through the green" LZs and approaches for anyone but the degree of green surface firmness for various levels of golfers is an entirely different world and immensely complex and potentially problematic in the world of green surface firmness. And it's also the primary reason I do make such a distinction between green surface firmness and other areas.

You give the grandmas of the world and their fellow traveler type golfers green surface firmness of the type and degree that's ideal to challenge a golfer like you and basically they don't have a chance in hell of holding a green with an aerial shot onto it with one of their full shots or a green that doesn't have a ground game approach option or a realistic one.

You don't think that creates immense problems amongst memberships? There's no question about it. This just falls right into the lap of the entire "easier/harder" dynamic that almost always exists at clubs amongst the levels of golfers at either end of the ability spectrum and causes immense problems to getting things like this F&F philosophy done.

It would be great if all clubs were able to develop a mentality amongst entire memberships the way HVGC has and the way Oakmont and Merion East has but the truth and realitiy is that took some pretty interesting and special sets of circumstances at those clubs, and still today clubs and courses like that are pretty rare.

But don't worry, I'm working on it. For some type of ideal maintance meld that can accommodate most every one and also be fun and challenging to most everyone I've been talking to Stan Zontek about analyzing pitch marks as an indicator of something that might be called a "fudge factor"---in other words those greens that have no ground game option and are strictly aerial demand can be maintained a bit more receptive to grandma's heaven wood than those greens that have reliable ground game approach options. And the good news with putting and chipping and such is that very few to no one would even notice the difference.

If it weren't that way grandma and her fellow travelers and weaker golfers who just can't develop the type of spin and control that good players can would never have a chance in hell of hitting and holding some of those no ground game option greens with their very best shots and if that happens with regularity don't you think that's going to turn into a real problem?  

[JESII]

Not if the rough is included in your IMM (read: manageable for lesser players but still a control penalty for me)

If the green is firm I had better drive it in the fairway because even 2 inch rough will cause real control problems into the greens. But that same 2 inch rough will enable granny to hit it up in front of the green. And you know what, if she really catches it and flies it onto the green and it goes over, the rough over the green is also 2 inches so she'll be able to pitch it back on with no problemo.

I think when you get into the nuanced distinctions you are currently contemplating you get into trouble. Soft enough for granny to stop her heaven wood, but firm enough to challenge me is bull----. Just make the consequences for her manageable, and the shot requirements for me recognizeable.

[TEPaul]

Sully:

There's a lot to talk about on this subject but to date I haven't even mentioned rough.

In many ways, getting any kind of understanding and consensus on this general subject is pretty scary. Have you noticed how much some of the very people who logically should support this kind of thing think of every reason under the sun not too? That's not very optimistic when you consider the rest of the people out there.  

Sometimes I really do wonder if about 3/4 of the world is just a bunch of Devil's advocates.

[TEPaul]

But basically, I am an optimist, and I just don't see any real problems with getting most types of courses firm and fast as long as the green surfaces don't get excessively firm for those who can't handle that type of excessively firm green surface with an approach from the fairway.

But I think the break even point is remarkably identifiable. It's when the green surfaces lightly dent to a good aerial approach. Linc's "skidmark" is too excessive, I think, for most but I think he's back off that some. I think he's backed all the way off to just a light dent.

[JESII]

Sully:

There's a lot to talk about on this subject but to date I haven't even mentioned rough.

How can you recommend 50 plus yards of roll without giving strong consideration to the rough? What would someone do on your 5th, 7th, 10th holes? They sure won't be hitting out of the fairway very often.

I can tell you this, if my nine iron just makes this light dent you are referring to, granny sure as hell ain't stopping her heaven wood on there. And that is the dilemna here. The point of the game is to figure out how best to get the ball in the hole. Even for granny! Your IMM is beginning to sound more and more like the guideling the PGA Tour uses for maximum entertainment. Rock hard fairways and receptive greens. Tell me I am wrong, please.

[TEPaul]

JES11:

What are you talking about? What are you complaining about? You're from HVGC aren't you? Since you are, you should understand this kind of dynamic across the entire player ability spectrum better than anyone. Didn't you grow up watching this kind of transition? I'm not saying every club can get down that road as well as and completely as HVGC has done it but they can start going down that road and this is the way to do it.

You can't be actually telling me that HVGC has done this but other clubs should never try to do what they have done.

I've played your course for years in all kinds of things and it always was pretty different from most anything else we played. Years ago the good players and the pros around here hated the way HVGC was with its F&F. They said it was a bad course, goofy golf, the height of unfairness etc. But your club stuck with it and if they weren't the club around here who completly turned the tables they sure were close to that.

Now a lot of clubs are following what HVGC began quite a lot of years ago and I don't hear those good players and pros around here damning your course and the way it's set up F&F anymore. Now most all of them seem to love it and respect it.

I didn't invent the IMM, basically HVGC, Linc and probably followed by your Dad did.

I just tried to explain it more completely and advertize it better.

About ten years ago I had a revelation playing NGLA. It was actually firmer and faster than I ever saw HVGC in any tourney I played there.

So I started calling supers and asking them how often they could produce that kind of condition and playability. About the first forty nine of them said stuff like we can do it maybe a few times a year spaced out but then they needed to yank their courses back into what became known as the comfort zone.

About the fiftieth super I called was Scott Anderson and when I asked him how often he got his course like that he asked me what the hell I was talking about. I said how often can you get it in that kind of playability? He said it was that way all the time, weather permitting.

Well, then I asked him how come I was getting an entirely different message for the other forty nine supers I'd spoken with? So he told me to come over and see him and he'd tell me about it. So I went to see him and Linc Roden who I'd met once but didn't really know.

At the end of that day I asked Scott if I could get him in touch with my super and to my total surprise he told me that I could not. When I asked him why he said because he didn't want to embarrass my super or any other super or put them on the spot. But he told me if I could get my membership behind this like Linc and your Dad did with HVGC for him then he would talk with my super.

Well, that's what I tried to do. It took me about another five or six years to get my super and others at GMGC to listen but we finally got headed down that road and when we get our course F&F our membership seems to love it.

So I just can't really understand what you're concerned about or complaining about. I can understand the complaints and concerns from a lot of other people, but you?

[Marc Haring]

Im thinking from a more UK perspective on this one. Firm and fast conditions would more relate to the green and the green area this side of the pond. So the point I was trying to make with '95% don't like' was it makes the ball hard to control and keep on the green. Many golfers think if at anystage a ball touches the green during flight/an approach shot it has a god given right to remain on the putting green.

Adrian

Really great to see you on this site.

I kind of agree with your statement above but at the end of the day, I have carried out an extensive survey of the Cumberwell golfers as regards what they want from a golf green. Actually the majority preferred a green that was medium firm and medium green. A true surface was what counted more than anything and as you know, the best way of achieving that is through a firm surface. I wonder, if I carried out the same survey at say Bowood, where 14 of the greens are substantially protected at the front, would I get the same answer?  

PS. The new course is just looking soooo good.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Hi Marc

My statement was a bit tongue in cheek, I think you know what I mean though. Im sure the majority will want as you say Medium-Firm greens that will reasonably hold a ball, Its 'cant hold a shot from 100 yards' thats less acceptable. Any chance of you posting some pictures of the new holes.

Adrian

[Marc Haring]

Hi Adrian.

I could post some pictures soon although I was intending to wait until we cut out the fairways and install the bunkers. I really think the course will come alive visually when we get the contrast in the tall grasses and maintained areas. However, here's a taster.....

This is the 5th of the forth nine at Cumberwell Park designed by Adrian but I like to think I had some hand in it. We are talking 100 yards of fairway width here with central bunkers, lots of options including a ramp at about 250 yards that will allow a power draw to get close to the bunkers and end up within pitching distance. The green is angled and protected to allow an easy approach from the left side of the bunkers but that will require a long carry and a accuracy to get between the bunkers and the long rough that will appear beyond the tree on the left. The fairway right offers plenty of bail out but a semi blind approach to a narrow green. There will be many ways of playing this hole and all of the others for that matter. I like to think golfers will walk onto this tee and say something like "what the ..... do I do here"!!!

[TEPaul]

"Many golfers think if at anystage a ball touches the green during flight/an approach shot it has a god given right to remain on the putting green."

Adrian;

Essentially that's perhaps the second largest obstacle to promoting firm and fast on golf courses, at least over here. And it's also why I always try to make the distinction between the three basic areas for firm and fast whenever I talk about the entire subject. If I don't do that, just about 95% of the time people, even supers, think I'm only talking about green surfaces.

I don't have a problem with green surfaces that are receptive to aerial shots, including green surfaces where good players can spin the ball backwards. All I'm saying is for the good player contingent, the only real way to get their attention enough to consider playing some type of ground game or bounce in approach shot is to dial down the receptivenss and reliablity of aerial shots flown directly onto greens. If you don't do that they will use the aerial option all day long, and why wouldn't they?

But firm and fast in the LZs and on the approaches and not on the greens is only about half the IMM, but at least it is that much, but it is not the way to make these classic courses as interesting and challenging as they can be, at least to good players. For that the green surface receptivenes to aerial shots has got to be dialed down to some extent, and I think that ideal extent is identifiable by a light dent from a well struck 9 iron, for instance.

[TEPaul]

Marc:

Thanks for that photo. It looks great and your description of all the optional strategies even better.

Is that fairway a natural landform or did you guys do some shaping upwards and around those trees. They look to be in some significant hollows?  

[Adrian_Stiff]

 For that the green surface receptivenes to aerial shots has got to be dialed down to some extent, and I think that ideal extent is identifiable by a light dent from a well struck 9 iron, for instance.

I'd say the light dent from a well struck 9 iron would be my aim as 'perfect firmness' for a green.

[JESII]

Adrian,

Would it be acceptable to the bogey golfers you know? In other words, do you see that "light dent" as a presentation to be made as much as possible or would you back off of that on most days?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Marc:

Thanks for that photo. It looks great and your description of all the optional strategies even better.

Is that fairway a natural landform or did you guys do some shaping upwards and around those trees. They look to be in some significant hollows?  

The landform is totally made TEP, original levels were the trees, and the site has been landfilled for about 15 years, the income generated has been reinvested back into the whole project. To some degree its been a balancing act of producing a good revenue stream for the client and ultimately producing a the best golf course we can for the money.
Nice to see it green Marc and as you say, the definition is really going to kick in when you make the definition of the fairways and longer/out of play areas. Any more pics you can zip up and email me?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian,

Would it be acceptable to the bogey golfers you know? In other words, do you see that "light dent" as a presentation to be made as much as possible or would you back off of that on most days?

Yes. I think most golfers would accept hitting a 9-iron and it holding within 20 feet, probably most would accept that 3 woods are not meant to pitch and stop. Firm and relatively dry conditins are best for growing fine turf and the greater emphasis should be given to producing conditions that make better putting surfaces rather than targets.
Things are different here in the UK Jess, sometimes the superintendent has no control on how he can maintain his optimun level of moisture retention. We do not have those moisture sucking out constructions here and unfortunately from November through to April most of our courses are wet and whilst a well constructed USGA type green would not be soggy or waterlogged, for the most time it would be wet/damp/soft enough that a 3 wood pitched on the green would hold a ball..hence the orginal question of difficulty in maintaining firm and fast conditions.

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