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[Garland Bayley]

Forrest's Hideout course is in Monticello, UT, the town nearest to the needles portion of the Canyonlands National Park. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid had their hideout in the maze portion of what is now Canyonlands National Park, which is across the Colorado River from the needles.

Unfortunately the day I played Hideout Golf Club it rained most of the day. Here I had gone to the desert southwest to hopefully play golf on beautiful sunny fall days and I ended up with rainy weather much like western Oregon.

Hole 1 371/352/312 Par 4

The first hole starts on a hill well above the fairway.



With an approach from an undulating fairway.



Hole 2 558/501/475 Par 5

The second hole tee shot faces a narrowing of the fairway and a creek crossing the fairway in the area of the landing zone for many drives.



Looking across the creek (some of its far bank appears at the bottom of the photo) to the second green.



The second green has considerable undulation as do all the the greens at the Hideout. The pin position was on an upper ledge on the right side of the green.



View from the green back down the second hole.



Hole 3 168/138/123

Playing right on the third is safer than flirting with going down the hill on the left and the ball will be kicked onto the green toward the flag stick.



Hole 4 390/357/326 Par 4

The fourth is a short dogleg right with a severe valley between the fairway shown and the green. It is concievable that one could risk going for the green here.



The valley to carry with the approach to the 4th green. It appears quite deep even though the camera flattens it out a bit. Edit: I happened to look on Forrest's website and found out that there used to be a stock pond in the depression.



Looking back from the 4th green.



Hole 5 375/308/275

For equal opportunity, the fifth is a short dogleg left again with the possibility of going for the green.



My lefty fade didn't fade enough to get me in good position, but left me with this short pitch.



Hole 6 415/356/331 Par 4

The sixth is a little longer par four where a stright tee shot over the vegetation in the foreground can easily find the middle of the fairway in front of the green.



The result of such a tee shot gives you this look at the green.



Hole 7 172/162/138 Par 3

The seventh plays up hill to a green behind a little rise that makes you think the green may slope to the back until you get there and find it actually doesn't.



Hole 8 402/371/341 Par 4

The eigth must be the most controversial hole on the course. Although I didn't test it, any drive to the left half of the fairway appears that it will run down a very steep slope into the hazard below. The only way of holding up the ball would appear to be to maintain rough tall enough to constantly cause lost balls. I chose to hit to the small flattish target area on the right side of the fairway before the fairway heads down a steep hill to the creek fronted green.



This is the approach down the hill to the green.



A closer look at the eigth green.



Hole 9 581/555/504 Par 5

The ninth is an interesting par 5 turning right and then back to the left again presenting three distinctly different looking shots. This is the tee shot to get into position to play slightly down hill to the right.



Where you will see the hole turning left again.



To a three tiered green set against the hillside.



Hole 10 400/358/318 Par 4

Ten is a dogleg right around a large tree on the corner. This is the view from the tee. I got quite a break as I chose driver here an boomed a long straight one that hit the trunk of the small evergreen on the other side of the fairway that can be seen between the yellow leafed tree on the left and the big green on the corner of the dogleg. The ball bounded back ...



to the center of the fairway for this approach.



Hole 11 180/167/135 Par 3

Eleven is a par three with distinct left and right tiers to the green. You don't want to be on the wrong side (as I was).



Hole 12 360/326/298 Par 4

Twelve is very narrow and short. It appears to want you to play off the hill on the left and let the ball run back into the fairway. I instead chose a 4 iron and hit my drive to the position I had picked out from the tee ...



Leaving me with this approach.



Hole 13 540/523/462 Par 5

This par 5 is constrained on the right by a water hazard that crosses the fairway just beyond halfway. The left has a slope that will feed the ball down to the fairway.



The hole is reachable in two as it plays from an elevated tee and plays generally downhill. This is the approach left after a good drive.



Hole 14 515/490/448 Par 5

Consecutive par fives. This one can be reached in two from a good angle if you can work the ball around the corner formed by the trees on the left.



Being unable to work the ball around the corner leaves this longer approach over bunkers.



Hole 15 290/280/239 Par 4

A very short par 4 with a blind drive to ...



a green surrounded by trouble.



Hole 16 405/374/341 Par 4

This is the uphill hole I posted about earlier. Drive to a wide fairway.



And approach to a skyline green.



Hole 17 181/167/150 Par 3

After playing up 16 you play down 17 and 18. 17 is a par 3 with a large green.



Hole 18 475/438/391 Par 4

The course finishes with the only long par 4, which is shortened considerably by the elevation and its downhill run. My 5 wood off the tee travelled 280 yards. I account for 50 of those yards due to the downhill run. Edit: Matt Ward wants you all to know that lighter color on the left side of the fairway is where the stream juts in and is a hidden hazard. I guess he didn't hit his drive as straight down the center as I did.



The approach is to a green fronted by an artificial pond. To my tastes, simply using the stream as a hazard in front of the green would have been enough.

[John Kavanaugh]

Forrest,

Congrats on the acorn..The course looks fun.

[Garland Bayley]

The course is indeed fun. It would take many rounds to explore most of the shot options.

[Bill_McBride]

There are a lot of steep sidehill holes! Did any have counter slopes (i.e. left to right slope on a dogleg left)?

#16, beautiful skyline green.    Was the climb up as steep as it looks in the photo?  

What else is in close proximity?  One of the Engh courses?  That looks like a fun destination.  How was the nightlife in Monticello?

[Garland Bayley]

There are a lot of steep sidehill holes! Did any have counter slopes (i.e. left to right slope on a dogleg left)?

#16, beautiful skyline green.    Was the climb up as steep as it looks in the photo?  

What else is in close proximity?  One of the Engh courses?  That looks like a fun destination.  How was the nightlife in Monticello?

The only one I think qualifies for counter slopes is 13.
The climb in the fairway did not seem steep to me. The climbs to tees for #3 and #11 were severe!

What is your definition of close proximity? I believe there is an Engh in Grand Junction, CO. Spann's Pinon Hills in Farmington, NM is probably about the same distance, maybe 100 miles, but probably more.

The close proximity to Monticello is Canyonlands NP, where the hiking in the needles is fabulous. But that is still 60 miles.

Night life? Don't know, didn't sample any. Probably the usual small western town whiskey joint. Wait a minute, this is Utah. Can't be any night life in Utah, Nevada sucks it all out.

[Adam Clayman]

Bill, There's a Press Maxwell museum piece nearby in Cortez Co. named Conquistador. And, a very interesting design in Moab Utah. Each about an hour away from Monticello.

Garland, That's Ken Dye's Pinon Hills. Baxter did the back nine at Riverview in Kirtland NM. next door to Farmington. As well as Black Mesa and Marty Sanchez over nearer to Santa Fe.

Forrest's Hideout is alot of fun to play. And the price cannot be beat.

[Garland Bayley]

And if you let your grey whiskers grow, they mistake you for the over 60 crowd and charge you only $19 for 18.

[Matt_Ward]

Garland:

I've played The Hideout and enjoyed the pictures you provided. Hole #4 and #16 are two superb plays indeed, to name just two.

One other thing -- on the 18th you need to mention the creek that juts in from the left side. From the back tee one doesn't see it that easily.

Can you describe the qualities of the turf on the greens?

When I was last there they had a few issues to resolve.

Thanks ...

[Garland Bayley]

When there were sharp edged tiers on the greens, such as the three tiered 9th, the grass was dead on the crest of the tier and down the steep slope. I only remember two greens having this problem.

Interestingly it was the same problem I saw at the Links of ND.

[Bill_McBride]

And if you let your grey whiskers grow, they mistake you for the over 60 crowd and charge you only $19 for 18.

Careful there, you're getting personal!  

[Forrest Richardson]

Garland has "nightlife" well defined in Monticello. Having said this, I managed many good meals at the Ranch Cookhouse (beer and wine I believe.) And there is a state liquor store, but you have to search for it and get there before 5pm.

Too bad it was a drizzly day. Some photos I was sent a month ago looked much better...brighter. (Our website has a good course tour.)

Re: No. 8, yes it was controversial even when we built it. The entire point of The Hideout is to be interesting and get people to want to play it again. Controversy often assists that — although I am never happy when it gets in the way of play and fun. My take on No. 8 is that locals have mastered it...but even they occasionally try and take advantage of the slope to reach a short wedge approach. This can lead to disaster. Visitors are perplexed at how to negotiate the fairway and slope, but that is part of the puzzle.

[Forrest Richardson]

...Rergarding the "artificial" pond fronting the finishing hole...

First, the pond is formed by a natural creek bed that has been there for roughly 5 million years. Secondly, the ponding is formed by the nearby roadway that serves the village of small cabins that will be built in the woods. The pond and stone wall are flood controls aspect that really cannot be avoided in this case.

Regardless. I think the larger area of the pond (a wetlands really) gives the golfer a better chance to see the hazard than if it were a narrow stream/creek running below the green. I do not like to hide water if avoidable.

[Matt_Ward]

Forrest:

The key w the 8th hole is not to get to bold with the tee shot. One can lay back and still have a very manageable shot into the hole. The further you go the greater the control is required. Sometimes people want to max out things and don't realize the risk that entails.

Frankly, if there's any weakness w The Hideout I see it with the first three holes. When you step on the tee of the 4th the game really starts.

[Garland Bayley]

...Visitors are perplexed at how to negotiate the fairway and slope, but that is part of the puzzle.

As a visitor, I guess I was not that perplexed as I hit my 5 wood to the area I apparently correctly chose on the right side of the fairway and then hit a 9 iron to 6 to 8 feet, but missed the putt.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Frankly, if there's any weakness w The Hideout I see it with the first three holes. When you step on the tee of the 4th the game really starts.

I don't think that is to say that all the rest are better than the first three. However, 4!, 5, 7, 8?, 9, 12, 13, 15?, 16!, 17, & 18 are at least more interesting if not better.

[Jim Franklin]

Who's the lefty?

[Garland Bayley]

Who's the lefty?

I assume you are referring to the picture on the third tee where I had taken out my club and teed up before I decided I had better take a moment and let my heart slow down after the steep climb at over 7000 feet in elevation.

So the lefty would be me.

[Forrest Richardson]

Next time Matt W. is there I have plans to get someone to slip him a Cayman ball!  

[Garland Bayley]

Next time Matt W. is there I have plans to get someone to slip him a Cayman ball!  

I guess this would be a good place to put total yardage.
6758/5865/5657 at over 7000 feet the blues and the whites are too short.

[Bill_McBride]

Next time Matt W. is there I have plans to get someone to slip him a Cayman ball!  

I guess this would be a good place to put total yardage.
6758/5865/5657 at over 7000 feet the blues and the whites are too short.

Completely OT, but has anybody else noticed how the whites these days are sub-6000 or right at 6000, and sometimes there's a big gap back to the next set of tees?  I thoroughly agree with the concept of playing the right tees, but something around 6400-6500 suits me best and you don't see a set of tees at that length too often.

[D_Malley]

this looks like a course that plays alot tougher than the yardage.  which i think is great, and no one is building them like this anymore.  the general public loves a place that has alot of classsic looks but plays only about 6000yrds, which at elevation is probably about right for this place.  congrats to forrest for bucking the trend and creating a golf course that the majority of players can enjoy.

[Garland Bayley]

If I were to play it again, I would select a variety of tees to play from. Sometimes I would choose the championship tee such as on 13. The difference between the championship and the blues is 900 yards, whereas the difference between the whites and blues is only 200 yards. At least that is what the scorecard says. My inclination from playing there is that the scorecard could be wrong on that.

[Forrest Richardson]

I do not get to concerned over scorecard published yardages. I like Garland's theory of selecting the best tees and going from there. I disagree that the 6500 yards is too short at 7,000 feet. There are plenty of hazards — but only 15 bunkers! — to keep order in the court.

[Garland Bayley]

...I like Garland's theory of selecting the best tees and going from there. ...

Is there a way to get a course rating and slope when doing that so that the score can be posted? I have not posted in the past when I mixed the tees.

[Tom Huckaby]

Garland - you COULD post a score using mixed tees - holes are rated individually from each tee more than 25 yards apart - but you'd need access to the hole-by-hole data and then be able to calculate the totals, and typically only the associations doing the ratings have the data.  So the answer is yes and no.   That is, you could but you can't.

 

[Garland Bayley]

Hmph.
Typical Huckaby answer. Tom, have you been a lawyer too long?
 

[Tom Huckaby]

Garland:

I'm not a lawyer NOW nor have I ever been, and I have never been so insulted.

 

The truth is the data exists to do this, but it's not published.  I guess I could have given a simple "no", but wouldn't you have asked "why not?"

TH

[Matt_Ward]

Forrest:

I really enjoyed my time at The Hideout -- I only wish more people could play the course because for all the gushing about Tallgrass -- The Hideout is a good bit more polished and challenging.

I do agree with you in regards to the nature of the property and the demands that come with it. As I opined previously, the 4th and 16th are twosuperb par-4 holes. Plenty of options and both are quite fun to play.

One other thing -- it's possible to mix a few new tee boxes into the equation -- for example one could play the 14th hole from the top part where the 12th hole is played now. It's a great view from on top and it does add a few more yards into the mixture.

The Hideout does offer a good deal -- but exposure is the key to it being even more fully appreciated.

[Garland Bayley]

...-- it's possible to mix a few new tee boxes into the equation -- for example one could play the 14th hole from the top part where the 12th hole is played now. It's a great view from on top and it does add a few more yards into the mixture.

The Hideout does offer a good deal -- but exposure is the key to it being even more fully appreciated.

What Matt meant to say is to play the 14th from the 11th tees. Unfortunately, I suspect this doesn't make the hole any better, just longer. I suspect it may take away the risk reward option of working the ball around the corner of the dogleg.

I suspect moving the course to Grand Junction, CO would be the only way to bring it the exposure Matt refers to. I suspect there is not enough golf nearby nor is there enough nightlife to attract the likes of Bill McBride. Me, I worked it in on my visit to Canyonlands NP and my travels of America's greatest highway, US 191.

[Forrest Richardson]

Playing 14 from the upper tees (at 11) was a design feature that we planned on all of our routings. It is only known to locals. Since it requires a walk, few take the time or effort. It makes the 14th better for one primary reason: It allows the golfer to see around the dog-leg, thus having even more temptation to cut the edge along the left.

As for moving The Hideout to Grand Junction...what makes the course special (my view) is that it is out of the way and quietly content in its small LDS community. When people discover it, they smile.

Quick story — When Blackhawk (country band) appeared at the San Juan County Fair a few years back, they decided to play golf the morning of their appearance. They finished 18..and then teed it up again the same afternoon. Nearly late for the concert...no warm up! Then, all the band members and crew got up the next day and played before heading north. They cancelled their tee times elsewhere to play their third round. They also recorded a song for the course to use as a radio ad, but I have never been able to get a copy.

[Matt_Ward]

Forrest / Garland:

Location only adds to visibility and with that a real appreciation of what's available.

Like I said previously, you have people tripping overthemselves about Tallgrass on LI and because it's on Long Island and many more people may play it -- the course gets an elevated push because of the awareness.

The Hideout is very unique -- there are plenty of fine holes and the overall property is what adds to the enjoyment.

Like I said before -- the layout starts out very slow -- but one you hit the 4th tee the game is certainly on.

P.S. I like the 14th from the upper tee area of #11 (thanks Garland for the correction. It then provides what Forrest alluded to in his previous post.

[Thomas_Brown]

Forrest - I enjoyed the course as well.
How did you decide on the routing?

Was the limited length due to constraints on property limits?

[Forrest Richardson]

Well, Matt...I have always thought No. 3 was quite a dramatic beginning..!



We could have made the course longer. We had our choice of three sites. When it came to the west of Highway 191, we had 300 acres. The routing came from wanting to cross the main ridge twice — once on the "out" and once again on the "in". This was a good use of the ridge and allowed a decent pace of ups and downs. Aside from a few steep slopes (unavoidable) we worked the holes into the terrain, fighting it occasionally.

The course was nearly 7,000 until we begin working on details for No. 15. Jack Snyder (my late mentor) pushed to move the green at No. 15 well up; down below the hillside. Also, we shifted Nos. 5, 7, and 11 forward. This lost us nearly 200 yards in the end. But...we were fine with this. Yardage was not the focus. And it still isn't. You can go out and hit away with any club you want — It just may cost you.

[Doug Ralston]

Found you on the net. Several nice reviews. Here is a site that gives yardage/slope, which are a bit different than given here.

http://www.uga.org/clubs/thehideout/index.cfm

Sweet course ...... nice job!

Doug

[Matt_Ward]

Forrest:

The 3rd is a decent hole -- the views it provides are clearly present.

I just see the 4th as the perfect intro to what the bulk of the course offers.

In some ways The Hideout is reminiscent of BB in that the first three hole are merely an appetizer before you enjoy the main "course" (no pun intended).

One other thing -- I really like the 13th hole -- it's one of the sleepers for me when playing at The Hideout.