Off the Radar Screen

[Jeff_Lewis]

Other than your home course, what are some favorites that people have that are not ranked by any of the major magazines and what makes them special to you?

I would throw out Mountain Ridge in New Jersey to get started. Donald Ross course on great terrain that has been removing trees. When they have removed some more, it is really going to be wonderful. Not a bear, but a great variety of holes on this course. Reminds me a bit of Bob O' link in Chicago.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Jeff,

This topic was brought up last year under the title "Hidden Gems".  With the new blood ingested into GCA in the last year, we should get new gems listed.  John Conley put together a spreadsheet of all the gems people listed and sent them out to everyone.

My main gem (that I listed before) is Deerfield GC in Newark DE, the club formerly known as the Louviers course at DuPont CC, where I was a member from 1992-1993.  Very hilly property (especially for Delaware), with a lot of fun, tough holes.  Awkward dogleg on par 5 1st hole was oly drawback.  That, and the big need for a chainsaw, especially on holes 5, 9, and 10.  A local rag listed the 18 toughest holes in DE, and Louviers had at least 4 of them (probably amongst 4,5,8,9,10, and 14).

I've heard the term "sporty" used for Deerfield.

Mike Cirba listed the ultra-affordable pair of Soaring Eagles and Ross' Mark Twain near Elmira, NY as hidden gems that I concurred with as I grew up in that area.  A note about Mark Twain that even Doak didn't mention in TCG is that all 4 par 3's are uphill.

[Jeff_Lewis]

Scott,
What is the vintage and who was the architect on Deerfield?

[mike_malone]

When my home course was closed we were able to play almost every great course  in Philly area.The one not rated that had the most appeal was Gulph Mills.I guess the membership just keeps a low profile,because the course is easily one the best in the area.
 There is a nice use of terrain and a nice variety of holes.I think the greens that call for a short approach are the most fun.#4 is barely 100 yards,but the slope of the green puts pressure on you.The 8th is short par 4 with 2 tier green ,but the green is at an angle so the ridge is approached diagonally.#11 is also wedge to green with some kind a elephant buried in the middle of the green.
  Other holes i like are#17---fun par 3.The opening three par fours that you hope to survive and #16---another wonderful approach.
   Let's hope the work being done there will preserve these features.I'm confident TEPaul will not let them mess it up

[Jeff_Lewis]

Mayday, again I am curious as to vintage and architect...

[Scott_Burroughs]

Alfred Tull & Wiliam Gordon in 1955, the same pair who did the main DuPont course, the host of the LPGA Championship.  Louviers is better.

[mike_malone]

Jeff
 I believe it is Ross and various revisions.I also believe 1920's.

[Jeff_Lewis]

Thanks, guys. Up near Elmira, in Ithaca, is Cornell's course, which RTJ apparently designed while in architecture school there. He was clearly in the steep part of his learning curve at this point, but there are 6 or 8 very strong holes on a very reasonably priced golf course.

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

Have to mention the Banks Course at Forsgate (Jamesburg, NJ). Great imagination in routing a course on former featureless farm land.

The Charles "steam shovel" Banks course maxes out at 6,600 yards and has arguably the finest set of par-3's in NJ beyond what you see at PV and Plainfield. In my mind, the 3rd at 195 yards is one of the four best in the state. Ditto the back-to-back par-5's on the front -- the 8th plays 575 yards and is uphill and unless your name is Jason Zuback it's a clear three shotter. The 9th plays just over 500 yards and can be reached in two shots provided you risk the second shot over a neat greenside bunker.

Superb greens because you see shapes and dimensions rarely seen.

The finishing three holes are also superb.

The issue for Forsgate -- location. Being halfway between NYC and Phillie has caused the course to get lost in the shuffle although it's opposute Exit 8A off the NJ Tpke.

[John_Conley]

Scott!  Did you just volunteer to update the Hidden Gems list??  

(I think I still have it on my home computer.)

[Scott_Burroughs]

Jeff,

I played the Cornell course for a week during a golf camp I went to at age 12.  Doak obviously played it many times during his undergrad years there.  His mention in TCG was that the course wasn't terribly special upon first review, but grew on him after playing it many times.

Chris Hunt might have a comment or two on it as well.

[Jeff_Lewis]

Matt, how pure is the Banks course at Forsgate? Has it been updated much over the years?

[ChipOat]

I'll stick with Inwood on Long Island and add St. George's (also on Long Island) which was the course Devereaux Emmett built in hopes of having his own "National".  It didn't
work out that way but, like Pasatiempo, the golf course is well worth the effort to play it.

Merion's West Course is too short to pass the ratings sniff tests, but it's a tricky devil that has some first class holes and some really neat green complexes, as well.

[Jeff_Lewis]

How well preserved are Inwood and St. George's. Where is St. George's located?

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

The best person to say for sure is George Bahto.

Give credit to the new ownership group in making sure that the Banks Course is no less the same course than what Banks originally envisioned. The turf conditions are now consistent throughout the playing season.

In my opinion, I'd include it among the ten best in the Garden State. There are a number of first rate holes (i.e. 3rd, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 12th, 16th, 17th, 18th) and even with technology improvements you still have to play a wide assortment of shots. There are a few quirks with the unique mounding you see on a number of holes, but you for a course that doesn not have par-4 beyond 440 yards I'd put it among the other "short" courses that always seem to get plenty of attention on GCA.

Ask many of the old timers who've played Forsgate back in the 50's and 60's and you will hear about the qualities first hand.

P.S. I am a big fan of Banks and believe his designs at The Knoll, Hackensack and Essex County are among the more undervalued layouts in the metro NY/ NJ metro area andones few outside th eregion really know anything about.

[Jeff_Lewis]

Matt,

When will you be publishing your best in NJ list? I will be interested to see where Essex and Forsgate turn up.

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

The issue will be out at the end of the month -- it's entitled "Jersey's Fantastic 50."

If you'd like to submit your own listing of the best in Jersey send it to me at mattwardgolf@hotmail.com by no later than the end of this week.

If others would like to participate I encourage them to send in their listing. If anyone wishes to get a copy of the magazine please let me know and you'll be forwarded a copy. Just need people to remit postage. Thanks!

P.S. Jeff, you mentioned Essex County and I know George Bahto's been working there in restoring some of the features there.

[GeoffreyC]

Essex will be greatly improved after George finishes with the tees and bunkers.  I saw his work there last fall and he certainly practices what he preaches - "deep and steep!"

Jeff- I'm not sure if you and I discussed Siwanoy in the past but I think its a hidden gem.  Bill V, Pete Galea and I played there last summer.  Pete posted some of his amazing photos and I believe it was an aerial of the day as well.  The archives should have some good discussion.  Siwanoy has a wonderful routing (as you would expect from Ross) and a great variety of long and short holes.  Ross used the stream running through the property very well with several diagonal crossings. Siwanoy gets lost among the many gems in Westchester County but the members have a teriffic golf course to enjoy.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Matt,

I don't think we ever got much of a chance to talk after my recent trip up to NJ.  I have been swamped.

Anyway I loved Essex.  I thought the routing was great.  You were right the first couple holes are not quite as strong and are a little quirky.  However, I loved much of what I saw.  Although the club right now is a little schitzophrentic as the restoration is half way done.  The bunkers that have been restored are spectacular. Once all of them have been restored to the flat bottom bunkers with the steep grass faces this entire place will have the continuity that it needs.  

I guess I wonder however what some of the purists here think, and how they think this restoration should be handled.  On one hand the continuity of the course is important (and that stands out as a negative at this time, but that is changing), however also some here are of the opinion that courses should be true to the "original" designers style.  

This poses an interesting question.  How would everyone think that you should treat a course whose 1-6 holes and 9th holes are A.W. Tillighast designed, and the balance were laid out by Seth Raynor and finished by Charles Banks (after Seth's death).  

I was thinking about starting a new thread about this as I thought it posed an interesting delimma.

On one hand you have continuity within a course to consider, but in order to do that you would have to either apply Banks style to 7 Tillie holes or apply Tillies style to 11 Banks holes.  What is a purist to do?

Again I loved Essex and hope to get back up there when they are done with all of their work.

[Thomas_Armstrong]

 Again, if you are in the Boston area you must check this place out. Fours 270-440, threes 135(plays 100)-255(!) over a gully, clubhouse 5 yds back), mounds, blind shots, bunkers are death, fun fun fun. Remember who told you about Plymouth, it was not Tom Doak, it was Tom Armstrong. If you play this course and have a bad thing to say I will never post again (my Fazio boycott is at 452 days and counting, not bad considering it's just a a block away).
                                               Tom

[brad miller]

Round Hill in Greenwich CT, great routing, wonderful movement in the land, fine small greens with interesting internal contour. This could be  a GW top 100 classic. As do many metro NY courses, still to many trees and seems to be maintained a bit to soft.

[ChipOat]

Jeff Lewis:

Both Inwood and St. George's are well-preserved in terms of original routing and golden era features.  Both are financially solid clubs (at least for now).

St. George's is located in Stonybrook and many of the members are faculty and staff at the SUNY that is adjacent to the club property.

[Steve Lang]

John Conley or others..

Has the Southern Pines CC (Ross course) ever been mentioned in the lists?  On our annual spring pilgrimmage to Southern Pines we play it on Sunday twice and also try to go out to the Old 9 hole course where it looks like Ross must have experimented with moving soils and pushing up mounded greens.

From the first hole to the 18th green it effortlessly flows over the sandhills with features that you learn and appreciate over time.  It is always on our weekly rota and as enjoyable 23 years later as when we first played it.

[Scott_Burroughs]

SP has never been on the lists (top 100, that is.  It was probably on the hidden gem list).  The greens were completely renovated by John Lafoy a few years ago.

It also happens to be the home course of Golf's Most Beloved.

[SPDB]

I'll offer two:

John's Island West, Fazio, Vero Beach. In my view, the second or third best course in FL. And as John C. and I seem to concur on, possesses one of the best 18ths to be found anywhere.

Great Bear, Nicklaus, Shawnee, PA. Terrific movement throughout, and a course that takes terrific advantage of the natural features of the property. A lot of fun - play it if you are in the area.