[JESII]

Sean Arble,

You are in a bit of a pickle here because of your run-in option qualifier for Redan's. the 11th hole at LACC North (as pictured) would certainly offer that because of the terrain short of the green even though the elevation change appears significantly downhill.


Regardless, I feel a replica hole should have as many of the original characteristics as possible. The vital playability characteristics that is, and visual obstruction is certainly one of them with the Redan.

Your comment that a miss to the right should yield an easier recovery than to the left is also a bit confusing for two reasons; first, the Redan imitations I have played do not represent this because of the severity of the green from right-to-left, and secondly, if you are correct then the value/risk of the Redan bunker is muted becase full avoidance (bailing out right) produces a lesser penalty than challenging the bunker and failing.

[Mike_Cirba]

Sean Arble,

That's the 2nd at Somerset Hills by Tillinghast, and probably his most famous Redan emulation.  

I've not had the opportunity to play there unfortunately, but from various photos it does appear to be downhill quite a bit.  I also believe that the trees were removed, but don't know for certain.

Perhaps Patrick can tell us about the downhill nature of this hole as I'm sure he's been there.   Then he can also tell us if it's a redan, as well.  

[Bill Brightly]

Pat Mucci: Hackensack's redan is #12. (3 is a biarritz.) I dont want to compare it to others, but it is fabulous hole that is getting better!

5 years eago we ripped out 50 (insipid) white pines on the left side of the hole. Last year we ripped out 40 on the right...This year we shaved all the rough off the mound that feeds to the green and Voila! it is TREMENDOUS. You really need to see it now!

[Patrick_Mucci]

I gotta side with Pat on this one.  Your example of the LACC's 11th is not a Redan or Nader as you call it.  It is downhill (an

Sean,

Who determined that "an absolute critical element of a Redan is that it be uphill"??

Mike Cirba,

The classification of a hole as a Redan has to do with the military genesis of the feature, the fortress like structure, with deep fronting bunkers, which is perfected when the leading ridge of the green/fortress can hide prone troops behind it.  

This deception, created by the unique topography, prevents the enemy from being able to view those troops from their position.

"High Ground" or an elevated tee, inherently eliminates the charaterization of such a structural relationship between the green and the tee as being a redan.

From the elevated tee, everything is visible, there is no deception.

In addition, there's not an off-green feature to repel and deflect balls away from the green.  In fact, the entire left side at # 11 at LACC directs the ball to the green.

However, since you're a lefty, I can understand your confusion.

I hope that helps  

And, it's not that the flag can't be seen, it's that the hole can't be seen, which is in keeping with the military concept of hiding troops behind the leading edge.
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You'd better get a BIGGER boat !  [/color][/size]

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill Brightly,

I think Hackensack is one of those courses that flies under the radar.

It's not well known, but, a terrific golf course.

If it was located elsewhere it would get more acclaim.

I always liked all of the par 3's at Hackensack.

I'm glad to hear that more trees are being removed, hopefully that trend is catching on and spreading to more and more clubs.

[Bill Brightly]

Pat, when did you last play Hackensack?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

It's got to be pre 2003.

[Bill Brightly]

Well, you MUST get out there! You will love the tree work, You will not recognize the redan...This season is just about done, I'll take you out there next year!

[Mike_Cirba]

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You'd better get a BIGGER boat !  [/color][/size]

Patrick,

Jenna now knows I'm completely insane as just I burst out loud laughing looking at the computer screen.  

I knew you wouldn't disappoint!  

However, I have to wonder why Charles Blair Macdonald would go to Bermuda 10 years after building NGLA and create a downhill hole that he called a redan.   What a cranky, delusional sort must have been!  Too bad he wasn't still around for you to set him straight.    

In fact, if you can find me one shred of independent evidence that a redan hole has to feature a blind target, I'll buy you a fish dinner.   Ditto for any definition of blindness of the military target.  

Finally, in the words of the founder of this site, Ran Morrissett;

"17th hole, Mid Ocean, 220 yards: A Redan that grabs the player's attention in that it is one of few that plays slightly downhill, allowing the player to enjoy the sight of his ball rolling across the green. The panorama from the tee, under the flag whipping in the wind and the blue Atlantic a few hundred yards away doesn't hurt."


Bottoms up!  

[Tony Petersen]

  The funniest thing happened yesterday here in sunny AZ... And, maybe this means that I'm finally getting it... We're playing Continental Golf Club, Par 60, middle of Scottdale, right by Old Town... Make the turn to the back 9, 2 sheets to the wind... And, there, gentlemen, was the classic definition of a Redan... 163 from the tips, front left bunker, pin tucked back left, green sloping from right to left... My buddy goes for the sucker pin and makes bogey (pin was 2 paces off the left edge of the green). I throw in a hard 8 to the right middle, and what do you know... 2 feet birdie putt... I waxed poetic on the virtues of the Redan, but my buddies were 2 busy getting more beers  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

Two of the worst sources you could quote would be TEPaul or Ran Morrissett.

Ran's area of expertise relating to golf is his ability to whine for more shots.   Only a misguided football fan like Huckaby would fall for that ploy.

The answer real lies in what the land provides, not in the name of the hole.

If you look at many of CBM's holes with THE names attributed to them, they don't provide a mirror image or close duplicate of the original or what CBM created at NGLA.

Remember, CBM was sought after for his designs.
People wanted the product he created at NGLA.
Hence, he produced template holes.
But, his template holes were templates in general terms, not identical replicas.  

Just look at the Alps hole at Piping Rock.
And, some of his other "named" holes.

I think the naming of the holes was more of a marketing technique, a general reference to the TYPE of hole rather than
a certification of the pedigree of the hole.
EXACT duplicate are rarely if ever encountered.

Ask yourself, what's more of a Redan, the 8th at The Creek or the 11th at LACC ?  I think the answer is obvious.
The 11th at The Creek is Nader with many of the Redan features, absent a tee at green level or below.

The 1st at The Creek looks alot more like a redan than the 11th at LACC.   If the angle of attack was reoriented from 8:00 O'Clock instead of 5-6:00 O'Clock it would be a true redan even though it's a par 4.

When you examine CBM's templates at various golf courses you can see their resemblance to the "concept" of the hole, but, they're a far cry from the original.

When you evaluate a "redan" I think you have to evaluate the hole in the context of having "ALL" of, or the "critical" features that comprise a redan, and, having the front shoulder or ridge of the green obscuring the putting surface is a KEY element in that evaluation.

Any tee that sits above the putting surface, that provides an unrestricted view of the putting surface, can't be deemed to be a "true" redan, irrespective of its name.

You're definitely going to need a bigger boat. !  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

Not that it's the definitive word on things, but, a glimpse of Winkipedia, under "Redan" might prove informative.

Note, that the 15th at North Berwick doesn't have the putting surface visible from the tee.

That alone would disqualify # 11 at LACC.

The other critical element is, by definition, the need for a "Fortress" like structure, which is presented by the foot pad of the green and surrounds.

I don't know of ANY fortress, in all of history, where the attackers were able to shoot DOWN into the fort and the defenders had to shoot UP to repel the attackers.

When you put it all together,
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You definitely need a bigger boat ![/color][/size]
 

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

You're too much!!  

I keep hoping that George Bahto jumps in here to help bail out this boat, but I have about as much chance of that happening at this point as Hooper coming up from that shark cage.  

I'm going to agree with you.  How bout's them apples?  

Frankly, I'm going to take a strict constructionist viewpoint here and say flat out that the 4th at NGLA is most definitely NOT a redan, simply because you can see more than the flagstick from the tee.  

At the original redan, sometimes you can't even see that much.

So, you're right, and there's only one redan.   Anything else by definition is purely a cheap imitation, fatally FLAWED in some manner or other, simply because it's not a true, 100%, down to the molecule replica.    

[Tom Huckaby]

Ran's area of expertise relating to golf is his ability to whine for more shots.   Only a misguided football fan like Huckaby would fall for that ploy.

The fact that I DID fall for it notwithstanding... you remain exceedingly lucky that Tommy pulled the plug on the latest football thread, as I had you on the ropes, knockout punch delivered, and the ref's count had reached 8.

 

BTW, strangely enough I am with you re redans.  I too think they need to be at the very least level to qualify, and really should be uphill - your fort descriptions are exactly how I look at this.

So correct my memory re 4 NGLA - a truly great GOLF HOLE whatever one wants to call it - that's really level, isn't it?  That is it appears downhill but really isn't?  It has been a very long time....

TH

[Mike_Cirba]

Paging George Bahto...paging George Bahto...

SOS  SOS SOS

Please tell us that the green level on the redan at NGLA is below the tee...please.  

[Gene Greco]

Mike:

   That Mucci is a big fish.

  "You're not down at the pond fishin' for bluegills and tommycats. He'll swaller ya whole. A little shakin', li'l tenderizing, down ya go."

   
 

[Tom Huckaby]

Paging George Bahto...paging George Bahto...

SOS  SOS SOS

Please tell us that the green level on the redan at NGLA is below the tee...please.  

It could well be - that seems right in my memory as well.  But I've seen it once, and that was now 5 years ago.  We need these gents who see it all the time to weigh in.

And if it is downhill, well... that takes nothing away from the golf hole, I don't think.  In fact I'll go to my grave saying it's a better golf hole than #15 North Berwick.  But the latter is most definitely a redan, and the former might not be.  I just don't get caught up a hole hell of a lot in that definition/term.

TH

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike:

   That Mucci is a big fish.

  "You're not down at the pond fishin' for bluegills and tommycats. He'll swaller ya whole. A little shakin', li'l tenderizing, down ya go."

   
 

Gene,

He can wriggle and he can wrangle, but if the green at NGLA is below the tee area, he's gonna be sinking like the Lusitania!  

[Mike_Cirba]

Finally, from Charles Blair Macdonald;

"The principle of the redan can be used with an infinite number of variations.  In reality, there are only four or five kinds of good holes in golf.  The local scenery supplies the variety.  Here is one of the four or five perfect kinds, the principle of the redan."

[George_Bahto]

Mike  C  ...... you know, I was thinking I would just let you hang out to dry on this one -  

but you're too good a friend ......

OK - how about a non-answer/answer      


NGLA

>>>  is the green level higher ......
probably YES ..... relating to some parts of the green

>>> is the green level higher .......
probably NO........relating to other parts of the green


WHAT ? (you say)


weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeellllllll  (that's Matt-Wardian)   .... since the front of the NGLA 4-green is about 5 feet higher than the back of the green (according to a green topo of Ed Conner) ..... it is may be both higher and lower

(That sounds like Marissa Tomei on the stand in My Cousin Vinnie)      

I think I'll go into politics as a new career after we get done with this one .....


hooooooowwweverrrrrrrrrr:

Although Mr. (out of respect) Mac - small "d" - onald does not exactly spell out the answer to this question he implies an answer in this quote to the wonderful essay Redan he wrote in 1914.


"There are several Redans to be found nowadays on American courses. There is a simplified Redan at Piping Rock, a reversed Redan at Merion Cricket Club (the green being approached from the left hand end of the tableland) and another reversed Redan at Sleepy Hollow where the tee instead of being about level with the green is much higher. A beautiful short hole with the Redan principle will be found on the new Philadelphia course at Pine Valley. Here also the tee is higher than the hole, so that the player overlooks the tableland"

KEY WORDS (since I haven't yet "learnt" the Pat Mucci color approach)

key words:  

"instead of being about the level with the green"  (Sleepy Hollow)

"here also the tee is higher than the hole"  Pine Valley"



by the way - the wonderful woman I've been married to for the last 54 years asked me what I would like to have for dinner tonight

you guessed it:       (Old) Macdonald(s)  ......   no, she was going to kill me

[Mike_Cirba]

George,

So what you're saying is that Patrick and I are both right?!?  

Why, my friend, that's impossible.  The earth will surely tilt off it's axis and will spin this planet into cosmic oblivion!  

Please...I had him hooked and was reeling him in.  Please just say, "Patrick is wrong here".   It's not hard...you can do it!  

Do you think the members at NGLA will mind if I go out there with surveying equipment?    

[George_Bahto]

nice - so now I'm caught between 2 good friends (you see Pat does have friends regardless of his colorful posts)

OK - perhaps we shoot some elevations next time out there ........   but, shoot, then there would go an interesting discussion

nope!!   keep speculating

[Mike_Cirba]

George,

Patrick's my friend too, but I can say it.

C'mon George...say it with me;

"Patrick is my friend but he is wrong."

Louder now...

"PATRICK IS MY FRIEND BUT HE IS WRONG."

There...doesn't that feel better?    

[Patrick_Mucci]

Finally, from Charles Blair Macdonald;

"The[size=8x] principle [/size]of the redan can be used with an infinite number of variations.  

In reality, there are only four or five kinds of good holes in golf.  The local scenery supplies the variety.  Here is one of the four or five perfect kinds, the principle of the redan."

Mike,

I highlighted the key word, "principle" to help you get a better grasp on the subject.

Think "theme" or "general concept" if the word "principle" doesn't jump out at you.

[JESII]

And that's a big belly-flop from the big tuna. He's back on the line Michael, get after it.


Sometimes it's more fun to watch than to dance, don't you think?

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