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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #50 on: October 28, 2006, 11:41:08 PM »
Mike Cirba,

The 13th green at Yale isn't flat, or anything near being flat and it has the high right to low left cant.

Tom Roewer

Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #51 on: October 29, 2006, 09:29:26 AM »
Sorry for the error on MLCC Redan.  I didn't realize i put 100 Ft. in elevation change  oops!

Mike_Cirba

Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #52 on: October 29, 2006, 09:56:57 PM »
Mike Cirba,

The 13th green at Yale isn't flat, or anything near being flat and it has the high right to low left cant.

Patrick,

I'm talkiing about the area just short and right of the green.  At Yale, it's flattish.  At the others I described, it's anything but.



« Last Edit: October 29, 2006, 09:59:51 PM by Mike Cirba »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #53 on: October 30, 2006, 03:20:11 PM »
Mike,

The area short and right of the green appears to be sloped, down, away from the green, therefore stopping any ball with any type of trajectory.

What am I missing ?

Mike_Cirba

Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #54 on: October 30, 2006, 03:25:39 PM »
Mike,

The area short and right of the green appears to be sloped, down, away from the green, therefore stopping any ball with any type of trajectory.

What am I missing ?

Patrick,

Exactly.   Yale's front right area has a flattish or even inverse slope that tends to kill balls, accentuating the downhill trajectory problems of the shot.

In the other examples raised here that are also downhill, but that I and others claim still work well as Redans (or Naders) anyway (i.e. Mid Ocean, LACC, Sleepy Hollow) have front right or front left areas that are downhill slopes running towards the green, and which will act to propel a ball forward and sideways.

This pic of the 11th at LACC, a Nader, might be useful to illustrate;



Does that help to clarify what I'm saying?
« Last Edit: October 30, 2006, 03:32:17 PM by Mike Cirba »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #55 on: October 30, 2006, 03:37:17 PM »
Mike,

The area short and right of the green appears to be sloped, down, away from the green, therefore stopping any ball with any type of trajectory.

What am I missing ?

Patrick,

Exactly.   Yale's front right area has a flattish or even inverse slope that tends to kill balls, accentuating the downhill trajectory problems of the shot.

In the other examples raised here that are also downhill, but that I and others claim still work well as Redans (or Naders) anyway (i.e. Mid Ocean, LACC, Sleepy Hollow) have front right or front left areas that are downhill slopes running towards the green, and which will act to propel a ball forward and sideways.

This pic of the 11th at LACC, a Nader, might be useful to illustrate;



Does that help to clarify what I'm saying?

Mike,

Yes.

But, I believe that feature disqualifies the hole as a true redan.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #56 on: October 30, 2006, 03:45:20 PM »
Patrick,

How exactly would you say that left side "kicker" on the 11th at LACC is fundamentally different from the right side "kicker" on the redan you might recognize below;  ;)


JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #57 on: October 30, 2006, 03:46:52 PM »
Mikey, I bet you thought you were about to hear the first ever Mucci-concession. Whoops, watch your ass after the rug gets pulled out from under your feet. ;D ;D ;D ;D



Mike_Cirba

Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #58 on: October 30, 2006, 03:49:56 PM »
Mikey, I bet you thought you were about to hear the first ever Mucci-concession. Whoops, watch your ass after the rug gets pulled out from under your feet. ;D ;D ;D ;D

Jim,

While you were typing that, I just played my trump card.   I'm anxiously waiting Patrick's response.  ;)  ;D

If that fails, I'm going to have to go to North Berwick and take ground samples.  ;)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #59 on: October 30, 2006, 03:54:33 PM »
The big fish has already wriggled free Mike, maybe next time. I can see it years from now at Union Cup XXIV, you're telling about the one that got away. The Redan kicker....the 11th at LACC....I thought I'd hooked him perfectly but no, oh no...
« Last Edit: October 30, 2006, 03:56:28 PM by JES II »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #60 on: October 30, 2006, 03:57:49 PM »
The big fish has already wriggled free Mike, maybe next time. I can see it years from now at Union Cup XXIV, you're telling about the one that got away.

In the words of Captain Ahab, "Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo"   :'(

Once more, with feeling, if the one on the bottom is a redan, why is the one on the top not a nader?  




Mike_Cirba

Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #61 on: October 30, 2006, 04:06:10 PM »
Actually, Jim...I think I've got two barrels on him now.   If he can still come afloat with those dragging him down, I may have to go for the shot in the oxygen tank.    ;D

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #62 on: October 30, 2006, 04:10:50 PM »
He can stay under for hours with two barrels!


Question: How long does Mucci have to stay quite before you can claim victory?

Mike_Cirba

Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #63 on: October 30, 2006, 04:14:56 PM »
Jim,

I'm ready for him when he surfaces!   ;)



"Smile, you son of a bitch!"
« Last Edit: October 30, 2006, 04:18:49 PM by Mike Cirba »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #64 on: October 30, 2006, 04:23:20 PM »
Watch for flying fish parts!

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #65 on: October 30, 2006, 04:33:53 PM »
Patrick,

How exactly would you say that left side "kicker" on the 11th at LACC is fundamentally different from the right side "kicker" on the redan you might recognize below;  ;)



Mike,

Shame on you.

The difference is like the difference between night and day.

First, the scale of the two features are like night and day.
# 11 at LACC is huge.  # 4 at NGLA is tiny.

The entire left side of # 11 at LACC, which is expansive, kicks the ball right to the green.

In addition, the entire left side at # 11 at LACC acts like a backstop, preventing balls from going long.  And, aerial approaches hit short are kicked toward the green.

And, the carry to the left side is benign.

The area to the right of # 4 at NGLA is crowned and can kick balls to the right or long, into deep bunkers.
Aerial approaches hit short stay short.

The difference in the play of the two holes is so dramatically different that I'm shocked that you would even ask the question.

In addition, the picture of # 4 at NGLA tells very little since it's taken at a rather flat angle to the green and the topo of the area isn't shown, nor are the deep bunkers to the right and long on # 4.

In addition, there are mounds within the area right and short of the 4th at NGLA which can play havoc with approach shots.
The area to the left of # 11 at LACC is nothing more than a flat board, serving as a funnel to assist bailouts or mishit shots.

The difference in the play of the two holes extends far beyond the photos you've posted.

I won't get into the other differences in the two holes as I would imagine that you know what they are. ;D

Mike_Cirba

Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #66 on: October 30, 2006, 04:58:11 PM »
Jim/Patrick,

I'm going to consider the fact that Patrick's response did not contain either a single question mark, nor a single BOLDED or all CAPS word as full concession, and swim on home.  ;)  ;D






« Last Edit: October 30, 2006, 04:58:57 PM by Mike Cirba »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #67 on: October 30, 2006, 09:47:32 PM »
Mike Cirba,

Your graphics are great, your logic and conclusions,
[size=4x]

FLAWED !  ;D
[/COLOR][/SIZE]
« Last Edit: October 30, 2006, 09:47:55 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #68 on: October 31, 2006, 09:11:00 AM »
I think the following statement is better here than as its own thread but if I am wrong let me know and I'll start one.

I do not believe the Reverse Redan has any right to be considered a redan to anyone but a left handed golfer. I think we have Redan's and left-handed Redan's, not Redan's and Nader's.

My reasoning is based on the shot requirements and how they are so dramatically different (opposite in fact  ;) ) between the two types.

p.s. Mike, I am not taking sides in your discussion with Pat. I am following a new train of thought. Keep after him, I'm sure you'll reel him in soon. ;D .


For a right handed player to consider the different ways he may try to survive a Redan hole he realizes that every shot must be extremely well played to find the green. The margins for error are only a fraction of the actual green and approach space. A hole moving the other direction does not hold those demands because a left-to-right shots stops so much quicker once it hits the ground.

Thoughts?

Mike_Cirba

Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #69 on: October 31, 2006, 09:26:14 AM »
Jim,

I completely agree.   As a lefthander, the shot requirements of a redan are completely foreign to me.   I've yet to learn how to hit the low-running fade that the hole requires, and my predominate left to right ballflight makes redans generally impregnable to me and I'm very happy just to get onto the right side of the green somewhere.

Naders, or left-handed redans, on the other hand... ;)

As far as my reply to Patrick, stay tuned as the sequel may include some electrifying developments.  ;D

Mike_Cirba

Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #70 on: October 31, 2006, 09:38:54 AM »
Mike

I gotta side with Pat on this one.  Your example of the LACC's 11th is not a Redan or Nader as you call it.  It is downhill (an absolute critical element of a Redan is that it be uphill - hence part of the reason for the name) and without the right (or in this case left) greenside bank with bunkers that kicks balls in if played properly.  In fact, there are very few examples on this thread which are Redans.

Ciao

Sean,

Who determined that "an absolute critical element of a Redan is that it be uphill"??

Mike_Cirba

Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #71 on: October 31, 2006, 12:05:09 PM »
Sean,

The original redan at North Berwick is also blind from the tee.  Using your criteria, shouldn't that be a prerequisite for any hole that is called a redan?  By that definition, the 4th at NGLA wouldn't be a redan, either.   ;D


Mike_Cirba

Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #72 on: October 31, 2006, 12:19:40 PM »
Mike Cirba,

Your graphics are great, your logic and conclusions,
[size=4x]

FLAWED !  ;D
[/COLOR][/SIZE]

Ah, Patrick...you're back again, just like the creature in a sequel that keeps coming back to life.   Is it just coincidence that it's Halloween today??  ;)  ;D

I figured you might return, so rather than debate endlessly, I'll let you argue with the following three chaps.   Like Sean Arble, perhaps then you'll argue that you've come up with your own, restrictive definition of a redan that's completey different from conventional thinking, but I think I'd leave it to these experts.   ;D

CB Macdonald - "Take a narrow tableland, tilt it a little from right to left, dig a deep bunker on the front side, approach it diagonally, and you have a redan.   At North Berwick, of course, all these things were done in the beginning by nature.  The only original thing that the greenkeeper did was to place the tee so that the shot had to be played cornerwise, so to speak, instead of directly down the tableland".  

Geoff Shackelford - "In most cases, the Redan presents an angled green that slopes slightly away from the player, with a bunker in front of the green and a nice bit of helping contour on the approach designed to give the golfer options in attacking the hole.  The player who plays straight for the flagstick had better hit a high, precise shot.   The less bold player can stay away from the fronting greenside bunker and run his shot into the green, using the contour to help kick the ball onto the surface.   Then there are the options somewhere in between the boldest shot and the safe lay-up."

George Bahto - "What more accurate way to describe a 'Redan' than Macdonald's own words? 'Take a narrow tableland, tilt it a little from right to left, dig a deep bunker on the front side, approach it diagonally, and you have a Redan.' Bear in mind when Macdonald says 'tilt,' he means it. At National, hole #4 falls over five feet from front to rear. Redans are usually around 190 yards (a formidable distance in the early days of golf) with numerous strategic options depending on wind direction and course conditions: Fly it to the green if you are able, lay-up and chip on hoping to make three, hit a running shot at the banked area fronting the green or even play left of the Redan bunker hoping for a better approach angle (not recommended!). Behind the green are usually deep sand pits to catch aggressive play."


 

Mike_Cirba

Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #73 on: October 31, 2006, 01:20:39 PM »
Those are very clever quotes, but all except Mr. Bahto have failed to correctly identify a very salient aspect of the original Redan.  The line "hit a running shot..." certainly implies that a Redan is at the least not downhill.  You and others may think this is unimportant, but that is a mistake.  Rest assured, when the player stands on the tee of North Berwick's 15th he will pay attention to the uphill nature of the hole or most likely come up short.  


Sean,

I'd be very surprised if George agrees with your interpretation of his "running shot" remarks to exclude any shots of a downhill nature.   And while I have heard people engage Geoff in disagreement, I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone disagree with CB, so more power to you there!  ;)  ;D

I have played the original at NB and while it does play slightly uphill, it's hardly what one notices on the tee.  Instead, I would think there's hardly a few feet of difference between green and tee, and the hole is largely dominated visually by the high ridge (higher than the green) about halfway between the tee and green.

The most famous imitation, the 4th at NGLA, I'd be surprised to hear it plays uphill.   Instead, it seemed to me to be slightly downhill, although that might be an optical illusion.   Does anyone here know for certain?

Finally, based on your description, would you consider the following hole a redan?

« Last Edit: October 31, 2006, 01:22:54 PM by Mike Cirba »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #74 on: October 31, 2006, 02:02:22 PM »
I would be curious just precisely how uphill the original redan is from tee to green if the fronting rampart were taken out of the measurement.