[Mark_F]

You could always join The Golf Club St Andrews Beach, where we don't allow any guests, overseas, interstate or otherwise, unless accompanied by a member, as a form of protest

Really?  I know of at least one person who has played there as a manager's guest, $160 I believe.

That is only a strictly temporary measure, because the people in charge of the place are utterly incapable of selling and marketing the shares, and have thus prostituted a fine club for the lure of some quick lucre.

Mark, David Tepper is right - I'm not whining about the situation (I wouldn't dare whine about anything on a golf architecture website given where I'm sitting right now!), I'm trying to illustrate the difficulty of access for an international visitor.  Its all irrelevant for me anyway at the moment, as the chances of me visiting America in the foreseeable future are slim.  It would be interesting to see how many courses I could play if I exhausted my network of contacts.

Why are your chances of visiting America slim?  It's only six hours away.

[John Kavanaugh]

I did not realize that Muirfield was getting at least 10 times the normal guest rate....so yes, this would work in the US if we could find a group of people dumb or rich enough to do it (On Tuesdays and Thursdays no less).  Hell, we will sell the whole club to you at the right price...Just look at Pebble Beach if you don't believe it.

[Chris Kane]

Why are your chances of visiting America slim?  It's only six hours away.

Unfortunately money is yet to grow on trees for me Mark, so America will likely be out of the question, at least in the next nine months.  I've chosen to focus on the UK/Ireland/Europe this time.

Tony, Doak must have sent a fake, as the young man you met was   wearing half-decent golf attire!  

[Mark_F]

Unfortunately money is yet to grow on trees for me Mark,

Don't drink so much Kummel then Chris.

[Mark Pearce]

I did not realize that Muirfield was getting at least 10 times the normal guest rate....so yes, this would work in the US if we could find a group of people dumb or rich enough to do it (On Tuesdays and Thursdays no less).  Hell, we will sell the whole club to you at the right price...Just look at Pebble Beach if you don't believe it.

I think the economics are crucial here.  I don't know how much my father in law pays for his annual subscription to the Honorable Company but I suspect it is around £500.  I'd be absolutely astonished if it was over £1000.  As I understand it, that is a fraction of the annual dues at the sort of US club we are talking about.  That means that almost anyone who wishes can afford to join Muirfield (or Prestwick, or Royal St Georges etc.).  To do so, however, they must know the right people.

Once in, costs are low because these clubs make substantial profit from paying visitors and societies.  Also, these clubs spend nearly all their income on the course and staff.  Facilities are not and are not expected to be, anything like as luxurious at the "equivalent" US clubs.  I think we really are talking about two entirely different models here.

[Tony_Muldoon]

A similar thread to this crops up every year or so but this one is getting closer to the bones.  Darren suggests the best experience is when you get to play these places  with your mates, but the American model suggests you go at the invite of a guest and as Patrick says ‘When in Rome....’ and in that way these clubs show you the real experience.  IN asking for more access would that experience be diluted?

Underneath all this it’s as important to define what the experience is as is it to debate the merits of access to British courses.  There is another side to ‘the Muirfield Model’.

First name, Paddy, surname Hanmer. At times a delight, with Americans a real right prick.

Bob

And in my book that makes him a prick. Once a prick, always a prick – beware of charmers. What does it say about the members who tolerated such uncooth behaviour for many years?  

Last year there was a book published over here called ‘No Jacket Required’ where the authored toured England and Scotland playing with Artisan Societies and on Pay and Plays.  The motivation came from the treatment he recieved after booking an afternoon game at Muirfield. On arriving at the right time the club sent out a minion who ordered them back to their car outside the club to wait until summoned as the morning group had overrun. Such tales are surprisingly common and not just against Americans and former Major winners.

When you visit a ‘top club’ in GB&I you are there because they want your money, no other reason.  I’ve been treated very well and I’ve been treated quite poorly.  I don’t kid myself I’m a part of the club for the day I’m just a paying guest.

There’s a long tradition of this.  The Pride and Prejudice model is interesting. Country House visiting at a fee goes back centuries and its heyday was the 19th century when thousands of poor and aspiring middle class city dwellers would take a train and visit one of the great houses, it was the origin of theme parks.  The landed gentry have nearly all been bad with money and so they allowed the hoards in. They did not welcome them as guests, they tolerated them and still the visitors came.


No I don’t think the Muirfield Model would work at all in America.

[Mark Pearce]

Tony,

Of course there remain some complete arses at British golf clubs.  Having said that I think they are now the exception, particularly in Scotland.  I have never, myself, received anything less than a warm welcome anywhere I've played.

My first visit to a "smart" golf club, as a beginner at the game (I started playing at 28 when I met my wife, who, as a Scot, had played since sh could hold a club) was at Ladybank.  We played with a group of members behind us and I didn't play well.  At one point I had a Hamlet Cigar moment in one greenside bunker and took 7 or 8 shots to extricate myself in full view of that group.

Enjoying a drink in the clubhouse afterwards, a member of that group, apparently in his 50s approached us.  Prejudiced by tales of golf club snobbery I expected to be assailed for my incompetence and challenged as to my right to play at their club.  Instead, I was asked how I had enjoyed the course, what I thought of the conditions and instructed to return soon.  My experience is that that is far more typical than the tale told in the book you refer to.  Members of clubs such as Prestwick, Dornoch, Nairn, Woodhall Spa,Ganton, Alwoodley, The Berkshire and Hoylake are all keen to welcome visitors and proud to show off their club.

Muifield has a bad reputation (mostly due to Paddy Hanmer) but I think it is now greatly exaggerated.  I have serious doubts as to the voracity of the tale you recite from the book if it is supposed to have happend on a Tuesday or Thursday in the last ten years.  They still have their failings (last time I was there a party of Australian golfers appeared at the gate without tee-times.  They didn't want to play but asked if the could walk through the entrance just to have a look at the course.  They were refused entry, which I thought unneccessary.  I suspect the same thing would happen at many of the more exclusive US clubs, however.

[cary lichtenstein]

Here is my story of my one round at Muirfield about 15 years ago.

My wife and I stayed at Greywalls and had a nice evening. We had to wait around all day and at 5 minutes to 4, they walked us out the door to Muirfield.

There were 12 of us staying there, we did not know anyone in the group. They had us all stand to the right of the tee and they called 2 names at a time, while 12 caddies stood on the other side.

There were 11 men and one woman, my wife.

We were called last, so we had to stand around in the cold and wind for an entire hour, stiffing up. It is 5 PM now.

The 11th caddy grabs my bag, and the 12th caddy, rather than picking up my wife's bag, says "I'm out of here"

Bette and I look at each other, and if its any place other than Muirfield, we would have left. O, did I mention that when we walked over from Greywalls, there was a sign that said "Women and Dogs are not welcome"

So I share pulling the cart with Bette for 18 holes on this dark, grey overcast day. I ask to caddy to carry double, he refuses.

I offer him $50, he refuses. I offer him $100, not because I'm a big shot, but because I have a pinched nerve in my neck, and I don't want to aggregate it for the rest of the trip and I don't want to listen to the misses, yada yada yada, if you catch my drift.

So, if there is something special about Muirfield, it is there attitude of superiority. I went back to Scotland a few times, but never to Muirfield.

So "Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?, if that is the question...you can have the Muirfield model and they, well %&%*#%.

Gullane on the other hand was wonderful , Dornock fantastic .

[Chris Kane]

Cary, with respect, by bringing a woman to Muirfield fifteen years ago you were asking for trouble  

[cary lichtenstein]

Chris:

And how was I to know?

Cary

[cary lichtenstein]

Is it any different today?

[Chris Kane]

Cary, its very well-known in the golfing world that Muirfield is a men-only club which historically didn't treat female visitors very well at all.  The sign at the gate would surely make it clear for you.

[Chris Kane]

Is it any different today?

I have no idea.

[cary lichtenstein]

Chris:

I have absolutely no room in my world for discrimination of any kind.

I have run into it in business many times in my 30 years in the textile industry and in golf, sad to say.



Cary

[Chris Kane]

Cary, if thats the case, then why did you proceed past the sign which made it patently clear that discrimination was club policy?

[Mark Pearce]

Is it any different today?

I really don't know and I've been there recently.  Certainly you don't see many women there.  One of my partners however took his mother (a single figure golfer, even in her seventies) there for a birthday treat last year.  They had a great time and there were certainly no complaints as to how she was treated.

The sign has gone and I believe there is now a proper women's changing room.  Somewhere like Muirfield has to change quite a lot and then be patient before the reputation it has will change.

Attitudes to women like those displayed in the past by Muirfield were not unusual in British golf clubs.  My club, The Northumberland GC does not have women members but has an affiliated Ladies club, Gosforth Park Ladies GC.  Until recently (last five years) to qualify as a member of GPLGC a woman needed to be a nominee of a member of TNGC.  A nominee could be a wife, daughter or daughter in law of a member.

In the late '80s or early '90s (well before I joined, so I don't recall exactly) the husband of the captain og GPLGC died.  She received a letter from the then secretary of TNGC commiserating with her loss.  He went on to explain that, as she was no longer the nominee of a member of TNGC she would have to resign her membership of GPLGC.  Needless to say the rules were changed very quickly after that!

Cary - it sounds like you were part of a group.  Frankly, fifteen years ago Muirfields attitude to visitors generally was very different to how it is now and it's attitude to women stank.  Frankly, if that group was commercially organised I'd say that the organisers really should have warned you what was likely to happen.  I wouldn't blame the club for the caddies' behaviour, though - that's down to the individual bigots.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Chris don't you think there's a difference between 'not wellcome' and plain rude?

Mark I mostly agree with you and  I've been treated superbly and I do think that these days even the oldest clubs are being run with more of a business mind and customer service is improving.  That said my worst experience was at one of the other clubs you mention, staff went out of their way to not be helpful.  Hamner may have gone but it will take a long time to change the members.

[Mark Pearce]

Chris don't you think there's a difference between 'not wellcome' and plain rude?

Mark I mostly agree with you and  I've been treated superbly and I do think that these days even the oldest clubs are being run with more of a business mind and customer service is improving.  That said my worst experience was at one of the other clubs you mention, staff went out of their way to not be helpful.  Hamner may have gone but it will take a long time to change the members.

Tony,

Now you've got me wondering which one.  I'd probably guess The Berkshire, simply because it's closer to London and, as a Londoner transplanted 270 miles, my sad experience is that in the UK people are (generally) nicer to you the further you get away from my birthplace.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Mark  

[Kevin Pallier]

So, if there is something special about Muirfield, it is there attitude of superiority. I went back to Scotland a few times, but never to Muirfield.

Cary

I'm sorry to hear about you / your wife's unfortunate experience in your visit to Muirfield.

I have been there three times now and each experience has been more pleasureable. The first involved a late afternoon visit to the course over 10 years ago where I was met by possibly said starter who was more than accomodating and after a brief chat encouraged me to view the course.

The second was a few years later where I was able to organise a game and once again, I was made to feel more than welcome. My last visit was in late 2004 where they were very accomodating and the members luncheon and associated kummel drinking was an experience to behold. The members at my table invited me to join them for an afternoon game and I must say I couln't have been treated more warmly.

I cant say I have had a bad experience in all my visits to private members clubs in all the GB&I and for that matter in Australia from what I can recall. I respect the rights of a private clubs to do as they please behind their doors but I certainly hope that with the passing of time more US courses open their doors on a similar basis as Muirfield do.

I plan to visit America again one day and to try to see some different golfing architecture but I'd suggest I'd have to do a hell of a lot more planning than what I've had to do in GB&I or Australia - but such is life.

Not ten years ago a lot of private courses in Australia closed their doors to vistors a lot more tightly than they do now - maybe the same could happen in the US down the track ?

[cary lichtenstein]

Cary, if thats the case, then why did you proceed past the sign which made it patently clear that discrimination was club policy?

Chris:

Because I thought it was a joke, in poor taste, but a vestige from the past, not the present.

By your comments, I would guess your attitude towards women on golf is negative. I am sencing that correctly?

Cary

[Tom Huckaby]

Interesting posts since I left yesterday.

To clarify my own point, no I never meant to say access to US private clubs was easy - it's painfully difficult, and completely closed to most.  I believe I did say it was a given that it was a lot easier in the UK...  

And yes, for you coming from overseas, well you are basically shit out of luck in the short term.  Such is our closed system.  However, I do firmly believe that there are plenty of clubs that you could access with a nicely-written, sincere letter, especially if it came on club stationery from your club, sent pro to pro.  Our clubs are not heartless... well, most of them anyway.

But that's not the point.  If you really have to ask which way is simpler, you're not paying attention and/or have never tried.  Access is FAR easier overseas than it is in the US.  Granted.  Given.  Assumed.

But is that the question?

I thought the questions were these:

a) would what Muirfield does work over here?  And to me, the answer there is a pretty obvious no, for many reasons - the main ones being the tax situation and the "class" situation that Rich Goodale succinctly nailed way back on page one or two of this.

b) is it a problem here in the US?  That was more what I was trying to explore.  And my take there was that I used to see it as such and complain about it bitterly.  But then experiences led me to an enlightening I should have seen anyway... and that is that guys like me have no rights to these clubs, so what good is it to complain or be bitter?  So David T. - I have no need to move to Cleveland - I experienced utter rejection and hopelessness right here at home not all that long ago.  But funny how things do work out... and of course it's not easy, nor should it be.  So is it a problem?  Well, only if you let it be.  As for foreign visitors, well... I hadn't thought of it in your context.  It's certainly a problem for you.  But still, not one that is insurmountable.

So Darren - no, I didn't miss your point at all.  I just extended out from the obvious.

 

TH

[John Kavanaugh]

I thought great courses like Pine Valley and Riviera already had too much play as it is...I don't think a member can just walk up and play anytime they want with a foresome.  

[Mike Hendren]

I must break my self-imposed posting moratorium to share one experience at St. Andrews as someone has already opined that they treat visitors more rudely than Muirfield.  

What do you expect from an enterprise that basically collects a significant portion of its revenue a year in advance?

After an a.m. round on The Old Course, I returned to the Dunvegan for a cheeseburger and pint of Tennents.  I then walked back down the hill to walk on The New Course around 2:30 p.m.  To my delight the first tee was empty.  I walked in the spiffy clubhouse and was promptly told that the starter had gone home and I therefore could not play.  I pointed out that this was my last day in town but was overly sensitive to appearing to be an "ugly" American - though I'm indeed no Lilly of the Valley.  

As for access to private clubs, we should always remember the wise words of Opie's buddy, Johnny Paul:  "It ain't a club, Sheriff Taylor, unless you can keep somebody out."

Mike

[Chris Kane]

By your comments, I would guess your attitude towards women on golf is negative. I am sencing that correctly?

Not at all, I'm offended that you would deduce such an attitude from what I've said.  

My point was that to visit a place with a reputation for particular conduct, where there is a sign which notifies you of such conduct, means that you have to accept it.  If you don't like it, you can choose to avoid it - as you have indicated you will do.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()