Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?

[Glenn Spencer]

My Muirfield story was just like playing at The Ocean Course or Inverness. It was the summer of 89 and I don't remember all the rules or whatever, but my grandparents had played it many times and my grandmother is a Scot. The Secretary was Gordon Van Rearen (sp?) His letter stated the my grandfather's 19 must become an 18 by the time we tee it up. They said they had one time available 9:10. We showed up and my grandmother and I walked into the clubhouse and gave Van Rearen a bottle of some ridiculously expensive alcohol, and then headed out to play. One caddie carried  our bags while my grandmother followed us around. My grandather and I had lunch and she met us afterward. I didn't see what the big deal was. The course was fabulous and I think it is underrated by some, although not at that time as it was #2 in the world.

[cary lichtenstein]

Chris:

I didn't mean to offend you, sorry if you interpreted it that way

Cary

[John Kavanaugh]

Glenn,

I doubt that your grandmother was a trophy wife of a textile baron.

[Glenn Spencer]

John,

Banker. I wouldn't think that she would fit the definition of a trophy wife either. She is quite a handful and will say anything.

[Mark Chaplin]

Am I the only person reading this thread with a wry smile?

A private club is just that private, if the members choose to allow visitors it's their choice, if they do not we might not like it but again it's their choice. In Britain we have a more relaxed attitude to visitors, there maybe a few hoops to jump through but you can get a game. I only know of 2 older private members clubs who do not allow unaccompanied guests, Swinley Forest and Glasgow Killermont, even Rye will accept some visitors with a letter of introduction.

As I understand the R&A would not take The Open to a totally private club, maybe the USGA could take the same stance and see which clubs really want to host the United States Open.

[Darren_Kilfara]

I know I'm hyper-anal about such things, but really, why should a thread about "the Muirfield model" and its applicability in the US turn into a recitation of personal experiences at Muirfield itself? Those posts, which have nothing to do with the more general model I had in mind, have taken what I thought was an interesting discussion on the nature of golf in America and redirected it in an entirely different and more personal direction that seems more conducive for the parallel "Jacket and Tie" thread, or a new thread altogether - in so doing, those posts have neutered the original discussion. Mabye the original discussion had run its course anyway, but I guess we'll never know...

[Glenn Spencer]

I saw a couple of posts about access, so I have a question. Lets say that a gentleman belongs to a nice solid course in the states. It is nowhere near the Top 100, but a good club nonetheless and he wants to play some of the great but not otherworldy courses in the US. Does it behoove him greatly, moderately or slightly to have one of those International memberships at one of European courses?

[Tom Huckaby]

Darren - you are hyper-anal about such things, and you should know better how things work here.  The next discussion that stays 100% focused on the intent of the Topic originator will be the first.      In my case, I thought the answer to your question was pretty obvious, and you wanted more than a simple "no."  

Mark - I too have had a wry smile throughout this.

TH

[John Kavanaugh]

I know I'm hyper-anal about such things, but really, why should a thread about "the Muirfield model" and its applicability in the US turn into a recitation of personal experiences at Muirfield itself? Those posts, which have nothing to do with the more general model I had in mind, have taken what I thought was an interesting discussion on the nature of golf in America and redirected it in an entirely different and more personal direction that seems more conducive for the parallel "Jacket and Tie" thread, or a new thread altogether - in so doing, those posts have neutered the original discussion. Mabye the original discussion had run its course anyway, but I guess we'll never know...

Darren,

The dynamic of the board has changed to the point where a thread has an appoximate 3 hour shelf life before it hits the second page.  If you want the idea hammered out you need to welcome almost anything that gives it a bump backup top (besides the disgusting "bump" post..If you have nothing more to add then "bump" the idea is hashed out)

I'm glad it made it through the night as I learned more this morning both on the board and in IM's.  Honestly, I think we have the Muirfield model at Riviera and Pasatiempo....I just didn't realize it until today.

[Darren_Kilfara]

Fair point, John.

By the way, how does Pasatiempo have a "Muirfield model" - isn't it a public access/resort course anyway?

[John Kavanaugh]

Pasatiempo is a private course that allows public play at their discrection.  It has been rumored that memberships sell for hundreds of thousands of dollars.

[Tom Huckaby]

Fair point, John.

By the way, how does Pasatiempo have a "Muirfield model" - isn't it a public access/resort course anyway?

Pasatiempo is semi-private - members get all morning tee times.  It's not exactly the Muirfield model, but close enough.  I never thought of it that way, either....

Of course the difference is the HUGE initiation fee at Pasa... but I'd guess dues are kept lower than they might be because of the income derived from paying visitors.  The same must be true at Riviera... although Riv is technically 100% private, no?  I wonder how they get around the tax issues....

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

Pasatiempo is a private course that allows public play at their discrection.  It has been rumored that memberships sell for hundreds of thousands of dollars.

That's not the best way to describe it - they describe themselves as semi-private - which I am guessing makes a huge difference tax-wise.  Available tee-times are also clearly listed on the website... members get mornings, visitors start after a certain time each day.

And it's no rumor... many have inquired.  Memberships were as high as $375K a few years ago, and are as low as $130K or so today.

Not that such is in my reality, but well... I do dream.

TH

[Glenn Spencer]

Is my question in #113 really stupid or something? I would really like to know if it would help or not.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Darren, I do not think Muirfield has a model worth following. I love the course, traditions and have enjoyed meeting and getting to know a number of Members. Yet, I find little about the way they handle guests worthy of looking at as a model, including the relationship with my beloved hotel next door.

[Tom Huckaby]

Is my question in #113 really stupid or something? I would really like to know if it would help or not.

I don't think it's stupid; I just honestly don't know... and given the sensitivity to access requests here, well... I feel like I've gone way too far as it is.  I bet those who do know don't want to answer this "out loud" either.  But maybe it's just me....

TH

[John Kavanaugh]

Glenn,

It is a stupid question...pro's don't give a damn where you belong unless it is at least top 10 in one of the various lists...and that is just young pro's who are not well connected themselves.  If a club wants your money they will take your money...making a pro be your monkey and jump through hoops is disgusting.

[ForkaB]

Glen

I doubt it, except to the extent that if you belong to a UK club and are known by other members who are also members of or have contacts at private courses in the States, you have a chance of wheedling your way on, if you so wish.  Your best bet, as implied above or in one of the parallel threads on access, is to become either a starter or a caddy at one of those UK clubs.  They get invited to the poshest of places all the time.  Adopting a thick Scottish brogue, however, is necessary, and it ain't easy (I've tried....).

Rich

[John Kavanaugh]

Pasatiempo is a private course that allows public play at their discrection.  It has been rumored that memberships sell for hundreds of thousands of dollars.

That's not the best way to describe it - they describe themselves as semi-private - which I am guessing makes a huge difference tax-wise.  Available tee-times are also clearly listed on the website... members get mornings, visitors start after a certain time each day.

And it's no rumor... many have inquired.  Memberships were as high as $375K a few years ago, and are as low as $130K or so today.

Not that such is in my reality, but well... I do dream.

TH

Huck,

Are you telling me that Muirfield is not semi-private.  You know from my past posts that any course that allows anyone to play unaccompanied is not private...It is semi-private.

[George Pazin]

I haven't read through this, but the plain fact is that the Muirfield model exists all over the U.S. They're called semi-private courses, where members get preferential tee times, sometimes the only tee times on weekends, and memberships are a small fraction of what full private course memberships are. There's a handful around here that are a couple hundred bucks a year.

I'm not aware of any significant course/club of this nature. The closest thing I can think of is resort courses where someone staying at the resort gets preference and a lower rate.

If there's a will, there's a way.

There's obviously no will.

I can't say I'd be any different if I had the money.

* Just saw Huck's and Phil's posts - I guess Pasa would be a significant course structured somewhat like the traditional semi-private course.

[Tom Huckaby]

JK:

I'm not telling you that at all.  I'm just clarifying how Pasatiempo classifies themselves.  In the US, it's a very important tax distinction, no?  In the UK I gather it doesn't matter what they call themselves.

So as you look at things, sure both are semi-private.

But I believe here in the US there is a huge difference between Pasatiempo and Cypress Point, and it's not just the 25 miles or so.

From the Pasatiempo web site:


Tee Times & Rates
Pasatiempo welcomes public play and accepts two types of tee time reservations: Regular (up to 7 days in advance) and Priority (up to 180 days in advance), which are fully explained below. Since Pasatiempo is a semi-private golf club certain tee times—mainly early morning times on weekends and holidays—are reserved for members.



That's pretty crystal-clear, and quite different from what one would find on a truly private club's website, no?

[Phil Benedict]

Why don't more courses adopt the Pasatiempo model?  It's such an outlier among elite courses.  Maybe the question should be why has Pasatiempo adopted the semi-private model?  Is it because awareness of the course is pretty much limited to the architecture cognescenti?

[Tom Huckaby]

Damn good questions, Phil.  I really don't know.  But we do have lots of Pasa experts / historians here, so perhaps one will step in.

I just do know this:  Pasa's fame extends quite far beyond architecture buffs.  Remember it's been a Top100 course on most lists for quite a few years now... Oh, the arky nuts go there to see Mackenzie's work... but many a tourist does go there just to play a great course, not knowing if it's designed by Alistair or Spuds.

TH

[ForkaB]

I could be wrong, but I think that Pasatiempo was never a truly private course.  I think it backed into semi-private status by selling "memberships" at some point in its life, possibly for finanical reasons.

If true, this is a very different situation that, say, Cypress Point opening up its early morning tee times to unaccompanied visitors, is it not?  If it is not true, well then, never mind!

[Phil Benedict]

Aside from Pasatiempo, is there any other top 100 "Classic" course where access is routine?  If not, it really is unique isn't it?