Augusta Country Club - confused

[RE Blanks]

The course that remains was built by Ogilvie and revised by Raynor in 1925 and then again by Ross in 1926.  The club then restored the course to the Raynor revision in 2003?  Is this correct?  If so, why did they pick to restore a course to standards that were only stood for one year before they were revised again by Ross.  Does anyone have any insight on Augusta CC?  Thanks

[cary lichtenstein]

Maybe because they were smart

[BCrosby]

RE

There were two courses at ACC as late as the mid 1930's. One by Ross and one by Raynor. (Both courses had originally been designed by local pros at the turn of the century. Ross and Raynor redid the home grown courses in the late teens. At the time the courses were tied in with the Bon Air Hotel, whose owner (name escapes me) had used both Ross and Raynor to design a lot of courses for his hotels up and down the east coast.)

The Raynor course was sold off during the Great Depression. It was developed and became the neighborhood that is now behind the par 3 course and to the left of the 10th fairway at ANGC.

I'm not sure of all the vicissitudes the Ross course endured over the years. It was "restored" by Brian Silva 5 or 6 years ago. It appears to have been more of a Rossification (Tom MacW copyright reserved ).

I do know that a pretty large number of members are not pleased with the restoration. Which I wouldn't care much about except that some of the more powerful members at ACC are also members at ANGC. They now view the purported virtues of restoring a classic course with great skepticism. Their views also adversely impacted some of our efforts at Athens CC.

Bob

[RE Blanks]

Bob
Thanks.  I did read the book Augusta Aiken in the golden age and remember some of the history of the courses.  a very interesting time in the history of those two cities. I guess my main question of concern is when people return from the course they say the same things.  A guy (who has never played a Raynor course) I know played Black Creek a few weeks ago.  I asked him what he thought and he said it reminded him of Augusta CC.  
The straight lines and flat bunkers (and punchbowl green) that are Raynor standards stand out to the player.  

Was Augusta CC really restored to play like a Ross?

[John_Cullum]

Augusta CC was a cover story for the Georgia State Golf Association Magazine about five or so years ago, not long after the renovation was completed. They had some in depth interview with Silva. He said the punch bowl green was Ross' design. I don't know the truth of that, but that was what the article said.

It would be good if somebody could find a link to that article.

[Dunlop_White]

Mr. Blanks,

Never been to Black Creek, but also heard their bunkers closely resembled those at Augusta CC. Could be a "Rossnor", as one architect once said

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Silva's restoration of August was really undoing the work of Bob Cupp, which included the filling in of a Ross Punchbowl. Silva also restored bunkers that were filled in or abandoned. I do not think there were original plans to work from althought there were members and former members who aided in restoring the correct depth of the Punchbowl. I'm not sure if the Cupp renovation work was his idea or the idea of the members at the time. There was an indepth story about the project in Links magazine.

I don't think it is necessary to post that a "large number of members are not pleased with the restoration," since that is true of every faithful restoration that has ever occurred. I had a discussion about this with a superintendent of a course in Massachusetts who told me "a lot of his members" were pissed with a renovation and happened at their winter course in Florida. I pressed him on the details: how many members and are the good players? The answer was: one and awful and, oh by the way, that member is a chronic complainer. So the bitching of one unhapppy members turned into "a lot."

I think because of my years as a newspaper reporter I do not believe a phrase such as a "large number of members" until I hear it myself from a large number of members. I talked with the GM at Augusta CC and he was ecstatic with the work. But, after all, this is the Internet, so facts do not play an important role.

Anthony

[BCrosby]

Anthony -

My statement was based on responses from people I know at ACC. They indicated that many others felt the same way. (Many of my friends at ACC are quite good golfers, btw.) It's possible that the people I spoke with are outliers not in touch with the membership's views generally. But I doubt it.

What is indisputable is that my old club down the road (Ross, '25) visited the ACC "restoration" about five years ago and decided that if that was a restoration, they would pass. The committee seemed to pick up the same vibes that I did at ACC.

That was a big disappointment to me and others at the time. I can't but help think that if they had visited any number of other courses restored with a different restoration philosophy, the outcome might have been different at our club. (I had hoped they would visit Aronomink, for example.)

Bob

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Bob, I had the pleasure of playing Athens CC with our own Mike Young last spring. I loved the course. Your ex pro and a wonderful man, Florida grad oddly enough, had so many birdies we lost count.  Please run down where you think ACc has had trouble because of the Silva effort at Augusta CC.

[jeffwarne]

I grew up at Augusta CC and played the course from 1974-1981 as a junior golfer and quite a bit up until 1988 .I have continued to play it several times annually in the years since.

Augusta CC was a low key golf course with smallish bermuda greens in the 70's and bore no resemblance to the course there today.(No doubt it may have gotten that way via neglect and or redesignover the years)
When Augusta National in 1980 converted to bent the drumbeat roll began. Nicklaus' company Golfforce (Bob Cupp)
butchered a redesign from a conditioning and traditional  design perspective.
From about 1980-through most of my last years there there were awful greens or they were under construction.
(I even joined The Patch which was immortalized on this site by Turboe) Later they went to bent and continued to suffer with the greens which were mushy,unhealthy and had hardly any roots.
In the current Silva redesign,(the proverbial cocktail napkin Ross redesign-I'm not sure the 1926 Ross design was never actually implemented) they have at least improved the conditioning.(that said the bent greens still suffer due to geography)
 Most members remember how awful the condition was in the 80's after multiple regrassings and the Cupp redesign, so they are thrilled to have grass to putt on. Some like it, some don't, but few want yet another change to cause them to lose use of the course.
One thing is certain though. Bob Cupp DID NOT take the punch bowl green away on 16.
There was no punchbowl in my lifetime on that green and the former 16th had an awesome elevated green site.
I like punchbowl greens and don't really have a problem with the one at ACC -although most members I speak to do.(although it's the worst one I've seen and replaced a great greensite) It may have been there before 1974 when I started but it was not replaced by Bob Cupp in the 80's.

I like a lot of Silva's work and it's certainly better than it was for years,but it's about as good as it was prior to 1980 (but that's probably just nostalgia for what I grew up on)So on balance, I probably prefer the new(Silva) version.

I have no doubt that what BCrosby says is true about many not liking it.I couldn't tell you what the percentage is as I almost always play with the same group. I usually stay out of commenting or even listening as I'm a guest there now and I do enjoy the course and (most of) the routing is intact from my youth.

The amazing thing is the powers that be at the Augusta Golf Association(most of whom are ACC members) have ABSOLUTELY ruined the public Forest Hills Course nearby which was actually designed by Donald Ross.
What once was the busiest course in town is now a virtual ghost town as all the  players hate the green contours and regrassing maintained at a speed where the ball won't stay on the green. They don't overseed anymore because the new wondergrass doesn't require it (unless you'd like the greens to be a little slower than your garage floor)
I tried to putt on the putting green with my son and we left because we couldn't keep the ball on the green.

I do worry as Palmetto has evidently drunk the same kool-aid and is regrassing their greens and fairways this summer.
No doubt we'll be leveling out some of the greens to allow for the speed of putting on supergrass (nonoverseeded dormant)
I don't remember anyone I ever took to Palmetto saying that it would be better if it had some modern grasses.
or modern anything....

[Mike_Young]

Bob, I had the pleasure of playing Athens CC with our own Mike Young last spring. I loved the course. Your ex pro and a wonderful man, Florida grad oddly enough, had so many birdies we lost count.  Please run down where you think ACc has had trouble because of the Silva effort at Augusta CC.

Tiger
The gentleman you speak of is Ed Hoard PGA Professional...he is now at Long shadow, my new project in Madison.
Personally, I like Augusta CC and what was done there.  Greg "Woody" Burleson is the supt and he knows how to grow the grass.....
As for Athens CC and the impact of Augusta CC on them.  Well,( Bob C can chime in here if he wishes) we have 1100 members at Athens...we have a group, a small group, that feels they know what is needed, they had no problem with Augusta until they went to one of the dead architects society meetings. without saying more, that expalins much.... They came back and were experts on the subject.  One must understand that in Georgia, Augusta CC, Athens CC and Idlehour CC in Macon have a board meeting once a year and tell each other what the other needs to do.  
IMHO, most members at Athens have no problem with Augusta CC.  
.

[Dunlop_White]

I hear most members like the clubhouse, especially the oversized porch that runs the length of the structure. Don't know who renovated it, but I certainly enjoy it come Master's time.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Mike, I was not going to mention Mr Hoard's name without your consent. He is a gentlemans gentleman. I somehow got from Bob that the experiences at Augusta CC impacted in some way some changes you were considering at Athens CC.

[Mike_Young]

Tiger,
Mr Hoard is a gentleman's gentleman. Did you see him refereeing the Ryder Cup this year?  He was with DiMarco when he conceded on th elast day...
Anyway be careful how you phrase comments regarding Athens CC...when you say "changes you were considering" some of the spankers at the club that read this site will forward such to one of the powers that be at the club and the greens comm will get a copy of the comments at their next meeting....it has happened before.....fortunately we outnumber ........best for me to leave it at that.....

Dunlop,
I also enjoy the long back porch....I don't know who restored it but they did keep the section where Donald whizzed over the balcony while he was waving arms one day.  
BTW, the supt there is a protege of Mac's.  Do yuo know Greg?

Mike