[John Kavanaugh]

Seems like we started with an engineer like Raynor...then went to pros like Nicklaus, Palmer and Player and now are using writer/historians like Whitten, Shackelford, Klein and Bahto.  How has this progressed and why...

I realize engineers have and will always played an important role..is the same true for pros and writer/historians.

[ForkaB]

Given the ubiquity of cart paths, I'm surprised no architect has gone into partnership with a Highway Engineer yet.

[John Kavanaugh]

Rich,

Now that you are a well respected golf writer and historian you might take some solice in the recently discovered fact.  Golf is the only sport where a reporter can write himself in the game..congrats on your bright future.

[TEPaul]

John:

I think the use of historians/writers in architectural projects these days is simply a function of the fact that we are now into a real restoration phase in golf architecture. I believe this (as well as some new construction) is actually golf course architecture's FIRST renaissance cycle.

[John Kavanaugh]

TE,

Was there any historical basis in the design of Pine Valley...

[ForkaB]

Rich,

Now that you are a well respected golf writer and historian you might take some solice in the recently discovered fact.  Golf is the only sport where a reporter can write himself in the game..congrats on your bright future.

John

If and when I become famous, I promise that all my courses will be strategeric and all my cart paths will be asphalt.

Rich

[cary lichtenstein]

John:

I think Royal County Down "may" have been the Pine Valley Model.

Cary

[Jeff_Brauer]

John,

The engineering types (or more typically, the landscape architect types) still back up all of those helpers and make a project go, so that tradition is alive and strong.  For history sake, my long time associate is named Eric Nelson - while I didn't select him for that reason, its cool that Ross also had a chief associate of the same name!

The more interesting part of your question is the how and why golf pros and now writers seem to be able to get work in this field with little technical competence to produce a finished product.  I surmise that its always been a "nameplate" business, so being a writer or critic does put your name in front of most potential clients each month.  

Its also in part because people don't know good design from bad and also because they don't concieve of a golf course being "built" like a sticks and bricks building.  Jack and Arnie were smart enough to get their own teams to produce the work and simultaneously teach them the business.

[John Kavanaugh]

I find it hard to believe that Geoff Shackelford was the first writer/historian to become an architects helper.  Why didn't Darwin ever get a shot.  What about this Hunter guy..what did he do besides write.

[Mike_Sweeney]

I find it hard to believe that Geoff Shackelford was the first writer/historian to become an architects helper.  Why didn't Darwin ever get a shot.  What about this Hunter guy..what did he do besides write.

John,

You the King of Subtlety, have missed out on this one. It was lead architect of Old MacDonald, Tom Doak who started as a writer or at least was better known as a writer before he became an architect. Before you throw Brad , George and Shaq under the bus, Tom has to be the first on the Jaka chopping block.

[John Kavanaugh]

I give Doak huge props for his work in the dirt with Dye...plus didn't he win some architecture thing at that school he attended.

[Mike_Sweeney]

How did your brother break in?

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike,

Let me quote from that paper thing that goes around a hard cover book.  On "The Anatomy of a Golf Course" Copyright 1992..

"Tom Doak is a practicing golf architect and a dedicatd student of golf design. He is also quite good at explaining many of the more technical aspects of golf architecture in easily-understood terms.  This book will appeal to the many golfers who find golf architecture a fascinating subject and want to learn more about it." - Tom Fazio

Please note:  The fact that both I and Tom Fazio own a copy of said book is not meant to imply either of us have read it..or any other book on classic architecture.

[Mike_Sweeney]

How did your brother break in?

Thanks for confirming what we already know. Tom Doak is a golf architect.

Now what was your brothers path to architecture? Seriously was it through the asphault business?

I am a firm believer that there is more than one path on life to any one career. I am actually surprised we don't have a bunch of lawyer turned architects to talk about.

[John Kavanaugh]

How did your brother break in?

See this link:

http://www.kenkavanaugh.com/aboutus_ken.html

My brother wanted to become a golf course architect so he simply became one.  I'm sure his contact info is on his web site...why not give him a call and ask how he got that first job.  Or better yet...Why not have Ran call him and do a feature interview...Ya think anyone would read that.

[Mike_Young]

JaKa,
As you know the situation is that any of us that choose can be an architect/designer....and it is even easier today with the availability of excellent construction companies that can CYA the moves of someone that has not done it b4......unlike law or medicine there are no associations that govern golf architecture or construction for that matter.  So the defining element for most is finding someone that will allow then to spend their money......too much thinking goes on in this business....it is a big sand box.....

[John Kavanaugh]

I am actually surprised we don't have a bunch of lawyer turned architects to talk about.

I'm just waiting for the Flemma/Richardson collaboration...

[T_MacWood]

The writer helper is not unprecedented. William Pipe Follet - who wrote for Golf Illustrated I think - collaborated with Devereux Emmet. Guy Campbell wrote a little before collaborating with CK Hutchison. I think there are others....Max Behr is another (perhaps we can start a thread). Darwin did a little helping behind the scenes. There are more but I can't remember them.

[TEPaul]

"TE,
Was there any historical basis in the design of Pine Valley..."

John:

Do you mean was Pine Valley actually modeled after another course or some style?

If that's what you mean---not really, or at least Crump never actually said so that I know of. Many people have said there are distinct similarities in look between Sunningdale and Pine Valley. I suppose there were because the sites were both sandy with scrubby piney vegetation and such and also some assume it was modeled after Sunningdale because Harry Colt was involved with Pine Valley, and it certainly would be logical to assume that Crump analyzed the Heathlands and Sunningdale in his trip to Europe in 1910 to look at architecture. But when he did that he had not yet found the site of Pine Valley (despite the old story of him looking at it quietly on his numerous train trips down to the shore to play ACCC before the teens.

But I think it's pretty clear that Pine Valley was just a unique brainchild of Geo Crump's to accomplish a purpose he was dedicated to (a virtual training ground for Philly's elite players) and the course was pretty unique for its time for numerous reasons.

It's own unique model, if you will.

One really unique aspect of PV was numerous collaborative input from seemingly so many different architects and others. Crump was apparently a very accomodating man to most everyone and he certainly did appear to solicit and listen to most anyone but in the end it is more than clear that it was his decisions and his alone that were made on that course. The publicized efforts of Travis (in American Golfer) to make the course reversible is one good example. Crump apparently encouraged him to come up with design ideas in that vein but in the end he decided not to do it.

[paul cowley]

TomP is right.....we are in the first Modern Age Renaissance....or a Post Golden Age Renaissance....or in a Neo-traditional Revival Period.

...but one thing that we are not in [thank God ].....is a Post Modern Period, or worse yet, a Post Modern Revival Period.

[TEPaul]

Paul:

How about a post pre-modern neo-traditional classical renaissance Arts and Crafts Golf architectural revival that never really happened in the past but might some day in the future?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

John

For a lawyer turned golf architect, how about Ken Tomlinson who  designed the acclaimed Tidewater(GD's Best New Public, 1990) in Myrtle Beach.

from the course website:

" An Inspired Course Design
Designed and built by native South Carolinian Ken Tomlinson, Tidewater reflects his respect for classic turn-of-the-century golf courses created in harmony with the natural landscape. Tomlinson was involved in the entire course development and building process...from the selection of land to the development, design, routing, and construction of the course. In addition to being a golf designer, contractor and real estate developer, Tomlinson is also a tax and business attorney, a member of the South Carolina and Florida Bars and an active member of the USGA and Carolinas Golf Association."

Furthermore, lest we forget, Ron Whitten started his career as a lawyer before turning into a golf historian/writer/architect/consultant.

Steve

[ForkaB]

Harry Colt was a lawyer too.

[Joe Hancock]

"Me, I'm just a lawn mower...you can tell by the way I walk"........

TommyKnocker, that quote should make you smile.....

Joe

[Jim_Kennedy]

See this link:
http://www.kenkavanaugh.com/aboutus_ken.html
My brother wanted to become a golf course architect so he simply became one.  I'm sure his contact info is on his web site...why not give him a call and ask how he got that first job.  Or better yet...Why not have Ran call him and do a feature interview...Ya think anyone would read that.- JaKaB

I'd read that. Someone who started his Happy Trail with Roy and Dale should make for an interesting reviewee. Your brother doesn't seem afraid to take work across a broad spectrum of courses, from munis to high end.

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