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TEPaul

Re:An architect's opinion
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2006, 09:19:15 AM »
"I also think that he would be much more in Tom MacWood's camp than many would think."

That is the supreme irony of Tom MacWood's criticisms of what he calls Ron Prichard's "Rossification" restoration.

It seems to me that the "Rossification" or Ross courses is probably a bit more compatible than the "Reesification" of Ross courses, for instance.  ;)

And not just that but clearly Tom MacWood is neither aware of the interests of various clubs or cares about that aspect. That alone is pretty unrealistic in my book.

Kyle Harris

Re:An architect's opinion
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2006, 09:20:10 AM »
Wayne,

It's a simple fact that a large part of the market likes the work of architects who build courses based on the ignorant masses.

A large part of the success of golf is dependent on those "ignorant masses," and there is a trickle down (or across?) effect to people like those on this board who prefer a more traditional test of golf.

In order for the game to be healthy, there needs to be a mix of architects who are building banal courses that pack in members and architects who build controversial or traditionally inclined courses.

How else do standards and measurements against tradition get set?

For every William Flynn, there must be a Seth Raynor.

wsmorrison

Re:An architect's opinion
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2006, 09:29:16 AM »
"For every William Flynn, there must be a Seth Raynor."

Oh, now I get it  ;D  

While there will always be a continuum of standards and quality, there is no reason that the baseline cannot be much higher than it is.  While there are far more golf architects in business today, one would expect the degree of quality differential to be greater now than then.  But why is it necessarily so that the quality of some of the most successful in terms of quantity and profitability follow rather than lead?  In which other art forms has this been seen?
« Last Edit: October 23, 2006, 09:30:38 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:An architect's opinion
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2006, 09:29:31 AM »
"And not just that but clearly Tom MacWood is neither aware of the interests of various clubs or cares about that aspect. That alone is pretty unrealistic in my book.

TE,
I think this is exactly what Ron is saying.
Too many architects are catering to the whims of the club and not appreciating or giving any value to the work done by the original architect. I've seen too many clubs that want a restoration plan done by committee.
Following Ron's suggestions IMHO are very similar to MacWood's ideals. I don't think anyone is advocating a removal of irrigation or going back to thatchy greens.

Kyle Harris

Re:An architect's opinion
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2006, 09:39:25 AM »
"For every William Flynn, there must be a Seth Raynor."

Oh, now I get it  ;D  

While there will always be a continuum of standards and quality, there is no reason that the baseline cannot be much higher than it is.  While there are far more golf architects in business today, one would expect the degree of quality differential to be greater now than then.  But why is it necessarily so that the quality of some of the most successful in terms of quantity and profitability follow rather than lead?  In which other art forms has this been seen?

Wayne, I'll agree that the baseline should be very much higher (I go to a course like Jeffersonville or Reading and state that this is the type of course that SHOULD be the median).

It's necessary because the term quality is subjective. Golfers, through all history, have varied in what is a quality golf course and what isn't. It remains a fact that bad golfers can go to a bad golf course and play by the rules of the game and enjoy themselves just as much as you and I would playing a Rolling Green or Huntingdon Valley.

Who is it for us to say that the other end of the market isn't worthy of a place to enjoy the game as well? So what if they don't particularly take heed of the skillset required at the higher levels of play?

TEPaul

Re:An architect's opinion
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2006, 09:48:15 AM »
Kyle:

On post #26 you are essentially talking about my "Big World" theory of golf course architecture----eg there should be something out there for everyone and every taste. With that some seem to feel that the entire art form and world of golf architecture is actually richer for it.

But if that is the case then perhaps you should desist with calling those people who happen not to like some of the things we on here like, the "ignorant masses". Should they really be labelled ignorant for liking what they like?  ;)

Frankly, this is the single point that I think Max Behr really missed on in his articles on his philosophy of what both golf and architecture should be. In my opinion, I think he seriously OVER-estimated what most golfers really do care about.

Kyle Harris

Re:An architect's opinion
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2006, 09:54:45 AM »
Tom:

Ignorance can still be bliss.  ;D

TEPaul

Re:An architect's opinion
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2006, 10:07:43 AM »
"TE,
I think this is exactly what Ron is saying.
Too many architects are catering to the whims of the club and not appreciating or giving any value to the work done by the original architect. I've seen too many clubs that want a restoration plan done by committee.
Following Ron's suggestions IMHO are very similar to MacWood's ideals. I don't think anyone is advocating a removal of irrigation or going back to thatchy greens."

Shooter:

That is true, they probably are far more on the same page than Tom MacWood realizes. He really doesn't know Ron Prichard anyway, so the fact that he may not understand that or appreciate it enough is understandable even if pretty ironic.

Ron Prichard, in my book, is perhaps the best researcher of old courses and old architects out there. There are a number of others who are getting up with him these days but the point is I think Ron has been into that far longer than anyone else.

Of course Tom MacWood has questioned Ron Prichard's researching abilities sort of implying he's a much better researcher than Ron is. Matter of fact, apparently Tom MacWood offered to help Ron in researching and apparently Ron didn't take him up on it. That's probably why Tom MacWood has had his nose somewhat out of joint about Ron Rrichard and his restoration projects. Perhaps some even think that MacWood is a better researcher but I doubt anyone would go so far as to imply that Tom MacWood knows even 10% of the "in the field" realities of golf architecture and restoration architecture that Ron knows.

I've said a number of times on here that Tom MacWood is a really good researcher. I just wish he would take the research material he comes up with and just pass it on to others who know how to analyze it properly.  ;)

Mike McGuire

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:An architect's opinion
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2006, 10:42:49 AM »
not sure about Rossification.....

Perhaps Ron is referring to the pussification of the American golfer, and how that has affected architecture.

It might not be a recent trend. When my home course finally got around to building the back nine in 1960 (30 years later) they igorned a routing from William Langford and hired a new architect. The result was flat greens and shallow bunkers.... etc, etc

Likely the architect was encouraged to design in this fashion but we are stuck with the results to this day.

TEPaul

Re:An architect's opinion
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2006, 10:48:11 AM »
Good morning Tom;
 
                            Thanks for starting what I hope remains a positive topic on GolfClubAtlas. As you have mentioned, this is a terrific website, which although occas-
sionally producing conversation which is a bit heavy on uninformed opinions; is always a source of much solid information for those who are newly exposed to the site.
 
                            As you mention, I struggle a bit with typing, but a shortage of time is
the real dilema. As an example in my letter to you last night, there were couple of typo's, one being, " I pladged, (pledged), myself to learn more and do what I could to take care of the great old courses which were in such serious design, (decline ).
 
 
                            I'll try to clarify a few points raised by several of your members so that they understand a bit more clearly the purpose of my late night contact with you:
 
                                   First of all, I am not discussing penal vs. strategic. On the great old courses, some of which I am honored to work on, they are all of an era and calibur where the architect provided optionaal routes of play.  What I have too often experienced is resistance from men and women who know little and consequently care little about such facts. By the way, how many people who get into this discussion regarding various approaches to design, ever recognize that The Old Course, considered the foundation of strategic architecture is laced with penal hazzards.
 
                                   Second thought.  -    I fully understand and appreciate the writings and comments of Mackenzie and Tillinghast. What they say, as quoted in this forum, was on the mark, but remember; it preceded the emergence of "The American Game" and the resultant perception of golf which is fixed in the minds of too many/most American golfers.
 
                                    Third  --  In reading Mark Fine's post regarding my meaning of "enjoyment". This was stated in the initial post. Again; "Unfortunately American golfers equate enjoyment with minimal challenge, no equitable penalty for their misplayed shots, and low scores".  (Now, I don't mean all American golfers, but I will tell you this reflects the feel-
ings of far far to many).
 
                                     And Mark, when it comes to the turfing of bunker faces. I never run the turf all the way to the bottom of the greenside face. Nor do I build flat bunkers.  I do understand that starting early in the 1900s some architects began to explore modest flashing of sand on bunker faces.  For the most part however; this was done for visibility, (which they felt was preferable); and it was not an effort to create a contrasting style.
 
                                     Fourth  -  Tom Macwood
 
                                                          The Formulaic Rossification of his golf courses is always to be avoided.  Anyone who seriously studies his work, would recognize from visiting his courses, and reading his "field sketches", he occassionally suggested running sand up the faces of his bunkers, and of course there is the example of Rhode Island Country Club where he suggested and built sand topped mounding as a hazzard.
 
                                                           A full study of Ross reveals there was no absolute set of rules which bound his work. There were indeed tendencies, and I believe those of us who are involved in the restoration of his work, or the work of any of the other master archi-
tects must carefully study all available records and information before we embark on the work.
 
                                                            Some day when I have more time, we can get into this entire topic a bit deeper.
 
Thanks Tom, I must go to work, will check in later. Say hello from me to Wayne;
 
                                                                                              All the best,
 
                                                                                                    Ron

TEPaul

Re:An architect's opinion
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2006, 10:54:10 AM »
Wayno:

Hello from Ron.  ;)

wsmorrison

Re:An architect's opinion
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2006, 11:06:40 AM »
Tom,

I respect Ron even more now.  He recognizes the true genius in our team and uses you as an intermediary (read piss boy) to contact me.  Next time, Tom, it would be better if Ron doesn't contact you, simply have his people call my people (you)  ;D

TEPaul

Re:An architect's opinion
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2006, 11:10:44 AM »
Wayne--on the contrary. Ron asking me to say hello to you just proves what a nice man he is to ask me to say hello to the lackiest peon in our entire global organization. But he is a smart guy and obviously realizes if he wants some rapid action the best thing to do is just to go directly to the top.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2006, 11:14:37 AM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:An architect's opinion
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2006, 11:21:41 AM »
Ron Prichard is not the only one involved in Rossification (I've noted other examples) nor are all his Ross restorations examples of it. The reason there is a prototypical Ross style to repeat is because a large percentage of Ross's courses exhibit that style. So archicects who lean on that style are going to get it right more often than not. My objection to that trend is when it results in an inaccurate restoration of some of Ross's more unusual and interesting designs...like Seminole, Aronimink, Oyster Harbors, Pinehurst #2, etc.

The reason Prichard's name gets associated with Rossificiation is because TE continues to bring his name up...for a long time during the early stages of the Aronimink debate I didn't even mention him (Prichard) by name...unfortunately TE constantly brought his name into the debate. With friends like TE who needs enemies.

As far as his research ability is concerned all I know is what he told me (that he was very busy and wished he had more time for it) and what he failed to discover before restoring Aronimink, relying too much on conjecture IMO.

As far as sharing information is concerned I've lost track of how many people (architects, clubs, writers, etc) I've shared information with. I've even sent information to TE so I don't discrimnate against the illogical (if I remember correctly he lost it and I resent it to Wayne). I sent a letter to Ron and to a number of other architects involved in restoration volunteering my services...some took me up, some didn't - no big deal.

And I'm proud to say my amateur status is intact...I have not accepted one dime for any thing I've sent or anything I've written....not that I'm opposed to becoming a money grubbing whore if the opportunity presented itself.

TEPaul

Re:An architect's opinion
« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2006, 11:55:37 AM »
"The reason Prichard's name gets associated with Rossificiation is because TE continues to bring his name up...for a long time during the early stages of the Aronimink debate I didn't even mention him (Prichard) by name...unfortunately TE constantly brought his name into the debate. With friends like TE who needs enemies."

Wow, that pretty much takes the cake on avoidance and rationalization. You're the one who's accused him of "Rossification" on Ross restoration projects and now you are trying to blame me for that label because I mentioned he was the architect on the Aronimink restoration project?!?

You really are some weird dude, MacWood, and once again it would probably help a whole lot if you actually bothered to see the course in the first place before criticizing the details of a restoration project and the decision making on it.

You really do need to get the hell out of your Ivory Tower and actually take a look at some of the things you criticize or else just shut up altogether on some of these restoration projects.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:An architect's opinion
« Reply #40 on: October 23, 2006, 12:03:45 PM »
Great thread, only made better by the term "lackiest peon" used for the first time in the history of the English language.

TEPaul

Re:An architect's opinion
« Reply #41 on: October 23, 2006, 12:03:47 PM »
Tom MacWood:

What you need to do is take some of that research information you said you've supplied to so many clubs you've lost count (obviously you can't count very high either) and spend a few days watching how that material is analyzed and the necessary decisions that are required when analyzing what to do with it and what can and can't be done for numerous reasons obviously you're not even aware of. In short you need to spend more time in the field educating yourself in that area.

TEPaul

Re:An architect's opinion
« Reply #42 on: October 23, 2006, 12:08:29 PM »
"Great thread, only made better by the term "lackiest peon" used for the first time in the history of the English language."

That's because in the history of the English language there never has been a peon lower or lackier than Wayno. Basically there is just nothing too small or trivial or insignificant or inconsequential that he won't do. I'm not sure what a "piss boy" is exactly but that's what he once proudly called himself. That might be lower than the world's lackiest peon.

But the USA is just a wonderful place because even the world's lackiest peon and piss boy belongs to one of the great golf course on earth.  ;)

Now, back to the subject of challenge, real golf and an architect's opinion.

Ron:

Do you think Merion should be able to be played successfully by a golfer who is also the world's lackiest peon and biggest piss boy or should it be far more challenging than that?
« Last Edit: October 23, 2006, 12:34:36 PM by TEPaul »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:An architect's opinion
« Reply #43 on: October 23, 2006, 01:24:09 PM »
Tom,

Maybe that last question was a bit toungue in cheek, but I think it is worth exploring.

You have obviously been a significant proponent of maintenance related conversations on here, but I wonder if you, Ron, Tom MacWood or anyone else feels as I do that maintenance is as important (probably more important) as architecture when determining the "playability" of a golf course. You brought up Merion, and in the days of 6 inch rough I would say the course was probably not very playable for the bogey player. Pine Valley was reknown for its penal nature, and in today's world Stonewall's original course has a feature (knee high, extremely thick fescue) that makes it nearly unplayable for these same type of players.

Most of these maintenance conversations get wrapped up in "firm and fast" and whether or not that can be achieved and whether it would help. I think there are other maintenance issues that should go into your "IMM". Rough height, fairway width, bunker preparation, underbrush in wooded areas etc... and I think the architect should be most interested in guiding those conversations. At different times on here I have asked the architects on board for their feelings in that regard and am told that it is essentially too idealistic a view of the process.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:An architect's opinion
« Reply #44 on: October 23, 2006, 01:35:25 PM »
Bill, I disagree with your premise and am in complete agreement with Ron.

After seeing Bob Crosby say what I was trying to say, only in an intelligent and intelligible fashion, I am planning to hire Bob to make all statements on my behalf in future posts.  ;D

Kyle Harris

Re:An architect's opinion
« Reply #45 on: October 23, 2006, 01:38:16 PM »
Tom,

Maybe that last question was a bit toungue in cheek, but I think it is worth exploring.

You have obviously been a significant proponent of maintenance related conversations on here, but I wonder if you, Ron, Tom MacWood or anyone else feels as I do that maintenance is as important (probably more important) as architecture when determining the "playability" of a golf course. You brought up Merion, and in the days of 6 inch rough I would say the course was probably not very playable for the bogey player. Pine Valley was reknown for its penal nature, and in today's world Stonewall's original course has a feature (knee high, extremely thick fescue) that makes it nearly unplayable for these same type of players.

Most of these maintenance conversations get wrapped up in "firm and fast" and whether or not that can be achieved and whether it would help. I think there are other maintenance issues that should go into your "IMM". Rough height, fairway width, bunker preparation, underbrush in wooded areas etc... and I think the architect should be most interested in guiding those conversations. At different times on here I have asked the architects on board for their feelings in that regard and am told that it is essentially too idealistic a view of the process.

JES II,

I am quite in agreement, especially in your criticism of the idea that this process is "too idealistic."

To extend it further, I don't understand why architects don't built 5 or 10 year plans into initial designs.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:An architect's opinion
« Reply #46 on: October 23, 2006, 01:56:42 PM »
Curious to hear an answer to that as well.

I can understand not wanting to make correction or modification plans for something just created, but I only see positive in having the designing architect involved in an ongoing capacity.


wsmorrison

Re:An architect's opinion
« Reply #47 on: October 23, 2006, 02:24:15 PM »
Tom,

Ixnay on the Erionmay  ::)

By the way, piss boy is much lower than the lackiest peon.  Here's a photo of Mel Brooks playing the Piss Boy to the French nobles (Harvey Korman, Mel Brooks also playing the King of France, and others) in Brooks' movie History of the World Part I .  Brooks follows the nobles around with a bucket for them to piss into:



Here's Brooks and Korman with Brooks playing the King where Korman tells Brooks that he looks like the Piss Boy:



And finally, its good to be the King!

« Last Edit: October 23, 2006, 02:30:16 PM by Wayne Morrison »

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:An architect's opinion
« Reply #48 on: October 23, 2006, 02:34:15 PM »
A wonderful thread; many thanks to Ron P. for participating, and for having high standards for his craft.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

TEPaul

Re:An architect's opinion
« Reply #49 on: October 23, 2006, 03:04:05 PM »
Wayne:

Look at that last or third photo of Brooks. You pretty much know where his face is about to go or has just been, don't you think?

BRRRRrrrrrrrr!!
« Last Edit: October 23, 2006, 03:05:05 PM by TEPaul »