News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


TEPaul

Re:Kudos to Tripp Davis!
« Reply #100 on: October 25, 2006, 10:33:12 AM »
"TE
......and what about Strong's work gives you such an impression of the National School?

I think I would say some aspects of his green designs, particularly some of the verticality of some green areas such as the right side of #16 at Engineers or the way he tucks green sites down into dramatic topography like the 18th or even raised it up like the old 2 or 20. It reminds me mostly of some of Emmett's work who I'd consider one of the major architects of the old National School style, particularly on many of the courses of the NY Metropolitan area.

I see some real similarities of look and style with some aspects (greens and green sites mostly) with the old Women's National and Engineers. Some of that may be they are quite near each other (topography).

T_MacWood

Re:Kudos to Tripp Davis!
« Reply #101 on: October 25, 2006, 01:07:57 PM »
I don't see any similarity between Strong's designs and Macdonald/Raynor or Emmet. I wouldn't put Strong in any 'school' - he was one of kind. If anything he was probably a product of Sandwich & Deal with some early heathland thrown in. His features are certainly not engineered in appearance....just the opposite.

I do think you hit on a good description of his style when you said it was bold. His courses feature bold greens, bold fairways and bold hazards. Another word I'd use is unconventional - unusual, interesting and unique holes and golf courses.

In a previous post Jason commented that it was his opinion that Strong's bunkers were nothing out of the oridinary - I would strongly disagree, no pun intended.

His bunkers were unique. His standard bunkers - Old Saucon Valley (pre-reoncstruction) and Manior Richelieu (pre-construction) as examples - very naturalistic and irregular. He also created dunesy or beach bunkers that feature clumps grass growing within - Inwood, Engineers and Manoir Rich had good examples. Some of these bunkers are expansive, more like waste bunkers.

And then there are few ohter types of bunkers that defy description like his string of pearls at Engineers and the odd bunkers at Inwood that resemble a series of clam-shells stacked up in succession. At Ponte Vedra he moved tons of earth to create large man-made dunes. in addition some of his courses were very heavily bunkered (Inwood & Saucon Valley) and others fairly sparce (Engineers & Manoir Richelieu)....likely based on their topography.

As far as describing his work instead of engineered I describe it as sensuous. The contours of his greens and fairways have a sculptured quality that is really quite beautiful. Another interesting aspect of his architect, a number his courses were realtively short, especially for championship courses, which is ironic because Strong the golfer was extremely long.

If I were forced to use one word to describe his work I'd go with sporty.

Furthermore, when it comes to a course like Engineers and a guy like Tom MacWood and restoring it more exactly, I feel that is a complex question which takes a whole lot of understanding on both sides of the issue.

In my opinion, I can't see how there is any way at all that Tom MacWood could be able to understand the nitty gritty architectural and restoration decisions that inherently come up with how it all relates to actual play. In a phrase he just isn't familiar enough with the golf course to fully understand those things. That just takes a lot of familiarity with the course and the project. He may continue to say it shouldn't matter but in the end that only shows his naivety regarding a whole slew of actual restoration issues.

But if such things like bunker placement make sense in play I can't see why they couldn't or shouldn't be restored, but they must make sense in play and Tom MacWood, I very much doubt, is in a postion to know that. The look of the bunkering, wherever it's placed, however, I can't see couldn't be done in a way that looked almost exactly like Strong's, but I'm not in a postion to comment on that with much authority because I haven't been there before or after.


As far as my understanding - or lack of it - the nitty gritty of architecture and restoration...I'll take your word for it....obviously you consider yourself exceptionally qualified in this area, who knows, but I would think a knowledge of the subject being restored would be an important requirement.

As far as making decisions regarding bunker placement...that is not restoration, that is redesign. I don't have a problem with most courses being redesigned, but lets call it what it is. But I do believe there are a small number of landmark courses that should be preserved and protected from your redesign efforts.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2006, 01:11:20 PM by Tom MacWood »

Jason Blasberg

Re:Kudos to Tripp Davis!
« Reply #102 on: October 25, 2006, 02:41:40 PM »
In a previous post Jason commented that it was his opinion that Strong's bunkers were nothing out of the oridinary - I would strongly disagree, no pun intended.

Tom:

My point was that  I noticed no distinct style that would be considered a trade mark of Strong.  The basis for this assertion are the old aerials I've seen.  Yes, he has vast waste bunkers with grass plantings, which look articficial IMO, especially in Roslyn Harbor.  

I find Tripps use of grass islands, very Emmet, in expansive bunkers a more natural look for ECC.

While not all of the string of pearls are restored, the half or so in the driving area are and without seeing an aerial I'd say they are very faithful to the original.  Also, while the cross bunker on 17 was expanded to connect around to the left into the greenside bunker it is very much in the old style and the most important bunker on the hole, the one short and right of the green is still there and nearly exact as it was in the past from what I can tell.  

The only bunkering that I have a problem with on the entire course, and my problem is major, are the bunkers on 7.  

They are out of place and from an aerial are an eyesore.  

They wont be there for long if I have my way, however. ;)

My last comment about Strong's bunkering at ECC is that it certainly was diverse  . . . trench bunkers on 2 or 20, waste bunkers with love grass on 10, a blowout sort of bunker between 9 and 11 green, pot bunkers strewn about, two large wash area bunkers bleeding down the hillside in front of 6 (Strong's 5th) tee.  I'm lobbying for the wash bunkers to be restored faithfully.    

Tripp has recreated that same variety and it's very consistant with Strong's scheme in that sense.

We also desparately need to restore the right greenside bunkers on 18.  

 
« Last Edit: October 25, 2006, 02:45:06 PM by Jason Blasberg »

Jason Blasberg

Re:Kudos to Tripp Davis!
« Reply #103 on: October 25, 2006, 09:48:23 PM »
TomMW:

Do you agree that Strong, at Engineers, did not display a telling characteristic other than variety itself and perhaps severity?  (Which is by no means a criticism, just an observation).    

The other problem that we have is Emmet's rather immediate influence.  It's difficult to say with any certainty what exactly was done by Emmet (as far as I know).  


TEPaul

Re:Kudos to Tripp Davis!
« Reply #104 on: October 25, 2006, 10:36:49 PM »
Tom MacWood:

I guess it's in the eye of the beholder but I see a real similarity in some of the green sites and green site architecture of Emmett and Strong, particularly in a few of the old green photos of Engineers and the Women's National. I also see some similarities in the green sites and green site architecture of Emmet and Strong with some of the greens and green site architecture of MacKenzie and the California school. There is some nexus here that needs to be analyzed.

To just say the architecture of Strong is "bold" isn't descriptive enough or definitive enough for me.

TEPaul

Re:Kudos to Tripp Davis!
« Reply #105 on: October 25, 2006, 10:44:33 PM »
As an example---if you find steps in some of the old bunkers of some architecture you may have some form of architectural nexus and I don't just mean the steps themselves---I mean the basic style and dimensional characteristics of bunkering.

I doubt, for instance, you'll ever find steps in old photos of Flynn bunkering, or Maxwell bunkering, or Mackenzie bunkering, or Tillinghast bunkering :) or.....  Ross, ummm, I doubt it but maybe in some of his early courses in New England. But maybe not. ;)
« Last Edit: October 25, 2006, 10:46:18 PM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:Kudos to Tripp Davis!
« Reply #106 on: October 26, 2006, 06:43:05 AM »
TomMW:

Do you agree that Strong, at Engineers, did not display a telling characteristic other than variety itself and perhaps severity?  (Which is by no means a criticism, just an observation).    

The other problem that we have is Emmet's rather immediate influence.  It's difficult to say with any certainty what exactly was done by Emmet (as far as I know).  


Jason
I would agree you that Strong included several varieties of bunkers at Engineers, but the large majority were the grassy strewn variety. That was realy his trademark at the time and the course's trademark.

I agree with you about the delemma with the other bunkers...I'm not sure who they belong to. If Emmet came back after 1921 (when he made some minor changes) or someone else did it or it was done in stages by several others...who knows. Whatever the case it changed the original character on some of those holes. The original course had minimal fairway bunkers (beyond the string of pearls).

There were some minor changes made in 1922 too - I'm not sure if it was done internally or by someone else. The back bunker at the 14th was raised from 10 feet below the green surface to 4 feet...to make a little easier. And the old 7th green was extended further.

Speaking of variety one of the most unusual features of the original course was a very large haystack mound between the 2nd and 15th fairways.

TE
Steps in bunkers? I've not really thought about it. Those steps never influenced my opinion of Strong's beautiful style (IMO), but maybe I've ignoring a similarity with engineered styles - the Steps School.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2006, 06:58:55 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Kudos to Tripp Davis!
« Reply #107 on: October 26, 2006, 07:02:54 AM »
"TE
Steps in bunkers? I've not really thought about it. Those steps never influenced my opinion of Strong's beautiful style (IMO), but may be I've ignoring a similarity with engineered styles"

Tom MacWood:

Not the steps themselves but the type of bunkering or type of architecture that generally has steps or needs steps.

"As an example---if you find steps in some of the old bunkers of some architecture you may have some form of architectural nexus and I don't just mean the steps themselves---I mean the basic style and dimensional characteristics of bunkering."

Architecture that makes steps in bunkering and the sides of greens etc necessary usually is an old fashioned style of architecture with a certain degree of verticality which itself is someting of a hallmark of the National School style.

I don't believe I would go so far with this observation, however, as to call it the "Step School of Architecture".  ;)




 

Michael Simes

Re:Kudos to Tripp Davis!
« Reply #108 on: October 27, 2006, 01:35:00 PM »

Jason, I wll be driving right past it on Sunday morning. Are you going to be in the neighborhood?

TE

I am also a member out at Engineers, and have had the pleasure of some brief discussions with Jason (though not yet the pleasure of a round of golf with him) about the course and the restoration.  I haven't been a member much longer than JB (probably have him by a few months), but I was able to see the entire work on 16 and 17 greens.  I'll be out at the club on Sunday by around 1:30 or so.  I'll be taking in 9 with my wife before taking our 4-month old to his first Halloween party.  If you'd like to stop by, let me know.  I'm sure we can arrange something.