Three tiered greens, are any being built

[Patrick_Mucci]

Multi tiered greens present a challenge to the incoming shot, recoverry shot and putting, yet it appears that they are becoming extinct due to increased putting speeds.

What are some examples of multi tiered greens you've played, and when were they built ?

What do you find positive about them ?

What do you find negative about them ?

Would you like to see more of them ?

[ChipOat]

Can't remember the courses, but I've seen a couple in Florida and Myrtle Beach, as I recall.

I remember them as being BIG and requiring local knowledge as to hole location and distance thereto.  Since the courses were forgettable, I guess this concept is, too.

Patrick:

Does #11 at National count?  If so, that's an exception to the above as to memorability.

Which ones do YOU remember?

[Rick_Noyes]

Patrick,

We have have designed several on a new course, for Campbell University in Buies Creek, NC, set to open next month on several of the shorter par-4's.  The thinking here was that if you're going to hit 9-iron or less into the green, you had best be accurate.  

I thought of National Club (formerly Pinehurst National) a Nicklaus design where several of the greens are multi-tiered (whether the hole was long or short).  The greens are also on a diagonal to the line of play.  This provides a multitude of possibilities based on where the hole is cut.  They are large greens and can be as much as 3-4 clubs difference depending on where the hole is cut.

The problem I find is when the putting surface is too small to accommodate multiple levels or the grade breaks are too severe.  What you end up with is alot of green to maintain and very few places to cut a hole.  Also if the grades are too severe, the green can only be mowed in certain directions without scalping.  I heard of one green at Tot Hill Farm in Asheboro, NC that is so steep that it can only be mowed going downhill.  The mower wont go up the hill.  That might be considered severe.

Rick

[HW]

#7 at Glen Mills (west of Philadelphia.
Architect: Weed

Par 3  160-200+yds uphill.

4 tiered green with strong left to right break on left side(right side levels out).
Green is 50 yds deep.

Each time I play the course they move the tee up.  It is a tough hole.  I'm not sure 'those in the know' have given this hole too favorable of a review.

The course is 2 years old and is great!


HW

[SPDB]

#15, John's Island West.

Drive and pitch hole, so the three tiered works very well, since you never have more than a wedge in. It is a largely blind shot, played from well below the green, making it even more dicey.

[Patrick Hitt]

Many of the Trent Jones Trail Courses I played in Alabama (Opelika and Oxmoor) featured a number of these greens. A shot on the wrong quadrant of the green could be much worse than being off the green near the hole. A pin sheet was necessary if one did not have local knowledge.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Ones I've played off the top of my head:

#17 green at Yale, the Double Plateau technically is 3 tiers.

#6 green at Banks' Whippoorwill Club.

Both are two years apart in origin, I believe.  Yale in 1926 and Whippoorwill in 1928 (Banks' redesign).

[Mike_Cirba]

The 16th hole at Woodloch Springs in the Pocono Mtns., about 13 years old and designed by Rocky Roquemore and Jeff Burton, has a very difficult FOUR-tier elevated green set on a diagonal to the approach.  

[A_Clay_Man]

Pinon Hills has them in abundanza. Built in 89' they aren't the only ones here in Nm. I think that the variety of the natural terrain makes them fit well. Twin Warriors has a couple as I recall and were built in 2000.

I find that Ken Dye is the master of illusion as it relates to these tiers. Most of the putts that have to navigate the tiers end up being straight putts, which is a real head scratcher. This is due to the fact that it is the back side of the ridge, in question, throws your ball back on line which implies double break straight. The hardest aspect, day in day out is the force needed to carry the first ridge, so any putt short is likely to fail and the same putt is often the result.

[A.G._Crockett]

Ken Dye put a couple of these in at Cobblestone here in Atlanta as well.  There is also a RTJ, Jr. course here called Woodmont with a couple of 3 tier greens.  One is highest on right side and falls two levels as you go left.  The other is a bowl with two high sides and a lower middle area.  Both greens are a lot of fun to putt, though it seems to be hard to grow good grass on extreme putting surfaces.

[GeoffreyChilds]

Stephen Kay put in a multi-tiered green of this sort as his copy of the 13th at Augusta at Architects Golf Club in NJ. Its an interesting green albeit nothing like the green on the 13th at Augusta.

The three tier green that I like best (not counting Raynor's double plateaus) is on the 16th at Westchester CC.  Its a drivable par 4 for the really long hitters.  For everyone else, the layup is very difficult as is the approach to find the correct tier. Great little hole and the greensite really works well.

[Nick Kokonas]

Lost Dunes by Mr. Doak:

10th hole profiled on this site is an excellent 3 tiered green which encourages a counter intuitive lay up well left of the tee-to-green line on the second shot.  

The wild 4th hole could be considered three tiered, but I have never seen a pin placement in the middle... perhaps too extreme to place it there.

[John Foley]

Brian Silva built a great one on a long uphill par 5 (# 4 or 5) at Shaker Hills NW of Boston. Course was built around 1991, so it's not that recent. Three tiers running straight front to back with a fall of on the left hand side. A great strategic green and really defines how you can try and attack the hole.

[Mike Benham]

Here are 2 examples with quite different risk/reward features:

7th at Olympic Lake - a relatively short (300-340 yards) par 4 with a narrow 3-tiered green that is considered a birdie hole.  However, if you miss the fairway, your ability to control the distance of your second shot (yes, yardage on the sprinkler heads) is more difficult and reduces the oppurtunity for birdie.  On the middle and lower tiers, the green has some funnelling slope to it which means you can get your second shot close to the cup, but also imparts difficult to read breaks in your birdie putt.  If you miss the tier that the hole is on, then it is a challenging and difficult 2-putt.  Each tier is deceptively small and it is not uncommon to miss the green, with a wedge or short iron from slanting fairway.

As quoted from the website "MacKenzie's favorite par 4, the 16th at Pasatiempo strikes fear into the hearts of nearly all who play it.  A blind tee shot over the indicator flag calls for some intelligent planning, precise placement with a draw.  Too far left, the ball ends up in a barranca, and too far right is OB.   Even the best drive leaves a long, downhill second shot to a three-tiered elevated green, guarded by an array of green side bunkers. Be on target or risk severe penalties,  the green rests behind a deep barranca and stream below."  

The 16th is a much larger green than the 7th at Olympic.  The difference in elevation from front to back is close to 10 feet with very few front hole locations available.  Likewise, if you are not on the proper tier, birdie is unrealistic and 3-putts more the norm.

And yes, both of these courses were built some time ago and are unaltered from their original intent.

[David_Tepper]

The 7th hole, Lake Course, Olympic Club has a 3-tier green.
After the brutal stretch of holes 2-6, which have 4 of the toughest par-4s you will ever come across, you come to the 7th tee and see the green just 310 yards away. An easy par-4 at last! Such is not the case. If you are on a different level from the cup, 3- and even 4-putts are not uncommon. I saw Larry Mize drive the green and make a 5 there. I think a tri-level green goes great with a short par-4.    

[Keith Williams]

My home course, Chapel Hills Country Club, is a Rocky Roquemore design from 1991 and the ninth hole has a green that on the right side has three tiers creating small "shelves" but over on the right side the slopes blend into a two tier portion with a huge elevetion change between the bottom and top tier.  I noticed that Rocky was mentioned earlier in the thread and having played many of his courses I can attest to the fact that he is VERY fond of putting tiers in greens and "sectioning off" sections of greens into smaller targets with tiers.

Also, a course called Nob North up in Rocky Face, Georgia has a massive three tiered green.  The course was designed by Gary Player (Ron Kirby) in 1978.  The third hole is a middle length par 4 with an uphill approach to a three tiered green with very large elevation changes between shelves.

Keith.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Of course, the 18th green at The Belfry (Brabazon course) is 3-tiered.... built in the late 70's.

[David Wigler]

#17 at the Polo Fields in Michigan (Built by Bill Newcomb).  It is the best green on the course. 52 Yards long with 10 feet of elevation.  Three tiers.  You can have some wonderful roler coaster putts on it.

[Doug Wright]

Bear Creek GC, a private men-only    club outside Denver designed in the 1980s by the Palmer group and visited by ruffians like Tom Huckaby, has many, many--too many-- 3, 4 and 5 tiered greens. They're unnatural, stupid, boring and exasperating IMO.  Here's an article about Bear Creek:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/acovfri.htm

For some reason, Ken Dye's tiered greens at Pinon Hills tie in much better with the rolling surrounds and seem challenging yet fair. I just think more thought went into them than at Bear Creek, where someone at Palmer maybe just did a bunch of drawings without ever seeing the property, mailed 'em out to Denver and said "build these."

All The Best,

[Pete Lavallee]

You'de be hard pressed to beat the three tiered 8th green at Cypress Point. The back tier is also gull winged, which leaves 5 distinct areas for setting the pin. The short par 3 15th at Rustic Canyon has a nice three tiered green, with a very small third shelf in the back left, that is very hard to access.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chipoat,

I was thinking more along the lines of the 3rd hole at Adios, and a hole at either Carmel, Poppy hills or some nearby course.

I was also thinking of # 16 at Essex County East, the 2nd hole at The Knoll and thought about throwing a subdued version in such as # 1 at Friar's Head or # 7 and # 9 at Friar's Head which are similar to The Knoll and ECE.

# 1 at Westhampton could also qualify.

We both share a love of # 1, # 3, and # 6 at NGLA and I suppose you could throw in # 11 along with # 17 at YALE.

I suppose increased green speeds have resulted in more benign greens, and those increased speeds have diminished the shot and recovery skills necessary to negotiate greens of the types I listed, wherein, most people lament the dimishment of approach putting skills, the negative impact extends into the shotmaking and recoveray aspects of the game as well.

[Bill_McBride]

There are indeed a lot of pretty wild greens on the Robert Trent Jones Trail in Alabama, very large with multiple tiers. What makes them puttable is the realitively slow pace, maybe 7 stimp.  If these ran 11-12 like say Oakmont, no one would ever complete a round!  

[Bill Perlee]

Pat,
Gil Hanse and Rodney Hine rebuilt the severe fourth at Apawamis (Eleanors teeth) last year to a four tier green.  Very impressive in that it gave the membership exactly what they wanted, the same severe nature but some usable pin locations.  

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Those of you who like 3 tiered greens should move to California.  Ted Robinson courses each have a minimum of one, often 3.  Tommy would say even more than 3.
I believe the 7th at Olympic was redone by Robert Trent Jones Sr. prior to the 66 Open?  Some member can probably help me here.
The 15th at Rustic is becoming a much discussed green.  The green seems to be growing on some, but the tee shot, a bit blind and from an angle still bothers most players.  Since it is not a long shot, the tiers work.  I think they are a bit more questionable if you have a longer shot like the 16th at Pasatiempo.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Lynn Shackelford,

Can you elaborate on the 15th green at Rustic.

What is its configuration ?  What was its design genesis ?