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Jay Flemma

Re:Wolf Point Club
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2006, 04:42:55 PM »
Congrats Mike!  It looks really interesting.

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wolf Point Club
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2006, 05:27:49 PM »
Jimmy,
dank u.
Did I mention it is very windy.  :)
I didn't consciously not place too many bunkers around greens, I think I just put them where they were needed or most effective.  Don has made similar comments before.  I'm going to chalk it up to never having learned the "right" way to bunker a green - or I'm fortunate that I've developed my own ideas about strategy.

I'd like to share more about the project, I've been a little reluctant as to the nature of the project, and we'll we've been a little busy... and pictures of dirt on this site don't lend themselves well to posting.  I will try.

Mayday,
My experiences clearing lead directly to that tree thread.  We've only taken down a few since then, with several more to go.  And it has been the method - taking my time - that has been most beneficial.  I have been much more comfortable with removing them as the course takes shape.
The picture of the 15th does still have a few controversial ones.  I like the ones on the golfers right - can be seen in the inset pictures - top and bottom ones - they were taken from the tee.
They create a staggered look, with a clearing behing them - a little room for bail out.  For me more natural than a big bowled out area.  The countering opinion is that they diminish the elevation changes, and without them the ground is more interesting.  But Don and I will decide sometime next spring depending on agronomy.

George,
The logo was designed without me also, as was the name of the course - mostly.  Sweet corn is on order.
I was considering calculating the slope and rating - I have volunteered as a rater before - and I do have the latest books.  I even asked an "official" here if they had access to the spreadsheets, but no luck or time yet.  Anyone have the spreadsheet for me to fill out?

I have often had you in mind throughout the design and construction processes and when you posted your ideal course profile, it was more than just a coincidence that I had just the course for you.  Did I mention the bumpy fairways?
Please keep all top secret correspondance between us...  :)

FBD,
Grazie molto.
It wasn't that long ago that the client was asking about how it was the 8th and not the 9th near the clubhouse.  I said oopss... that was as good as I could do.  :)
Then I went on to describe the merits of having as many good holes as possible and still maintaining the overall feel of the course.  He liked my explanations just fine.

Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wolf Point Club
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2006, 12:19:14 AM »
Mike

A while back you posted an image of a huge chasm that had been dug.  Is that the feature I see to the right side of the fairway on #5?  If not, where is that feature?

Also, what style of bunkers do you plan to employ?  Scraggy edged, grass faced, pot, cape and bay, etc.....

What existing golf course do you most see Wolf Point Club being similar to, if any?

What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wolf Point Club
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2006, 01:18:38 AM »
Nuzz, it appears very bold and exciting.  I'd love to see a 1ft ele topo to try and understand the contours and grading, even if it is only a prospective view of the intended contouring that isn't quite finished yet.  It would almost seem that you may have looked at Mr. Bahto's book a few times as the playing corridors with bunker placements ooze strategy and suggest many of C.B., and Raynor's ideals of playing corridors with many centerline and bottle and probably leven and channel and narrows strategies.  

How do you gents see the specifications of how the greensites-surrounds are to be seeded and mowed?  It suggests to me a bit of Wild Horse or Rustic Canyon style short mowed surrounds with hummocks and hollows surrounding the putting surface.  You know I love that! ;D 8)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wolf Point Club
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2006, 09:30:24 AM »
Dugger,
Yes that is the bunker along side #5.... infernio.
It is in very rough form still, but has been eroded a bit.

Here is that picture with my brother learing GPS inside...


Here are some illustrations that Don said helped with the bunkers.  They are both on #9.  What is their style?





We are experimenting with some alternative vegitation around some of the bunkers also.

What course is it most like?  I've had influences from lots of courses, but I'm not sure in totality what it will be most like.  
« Last Edit: October 17, 2006, 09:31:57 AM by Mike Nuzzo »
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wolf Point Club
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2006, 10:03:27 AM »
That first bunker illustration looks similar to Engh's bunker style at the Snowmass Club. Very deep with a rolling grass face.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wolf Point Club
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2006, 11:12:31 AM »
Mike, are you going to establish those bunker edges and surrounds with sod?  Bermuda?  what are the greens and surrounds going to be?  It looks like the Capt.'s bunkers might be an inspiration.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Scott Witter

Re:Wolf Point Club
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2006, 11:15:41 AM »
Mike:

That is some nasty :P looking subsoil you have to work with...looks like good old fashion silty clay, loads of fun to shape/move when wet uh?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wolf Point Club
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2006, 11:26:23 AM »
Mike,

Gotta ask the obvious - given how flat Houston and Gulf sites are, can that deep bunker be drained?  I do see some topo in that area on your routing that does make it look possible.

How far above sea level is this?

I also know how hard it is to make things visible on those type sites.  I think spreading bunkers across fw's like you have is a good way to combat this.  Like a few others, I wonder about hole 7 not only strategically, but also whether the far fw is even visible enough to present a logical target.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wolf Point Club
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2006, 11:44:36 AM »
RJ,
Ringraziamenti!

I can't show you the topo yet.  You'll have to visit first.  So while there is quite a bit of manufactured, there is quite a bit of non-manufactured.  I can't give it all away at once.

I always look at Mr. Bahto's book.

There is no traditional rough.  So everything will be tight, firm and fast.  Don will make sure of that.  Yes the green surrounds will be of your liking.

Dan,
I don't know what to say....
We do have a long way to go with the bunkers.

Scott,
Fortunately we do have some sub-soils...



Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wolf Point Club
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2006, 11:45:51 AM »
Why not returning Nines? Was there no possibility given the terrain?

best,
FBD.

Looking again, you could play:
1,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18
9,10,2,3,4,5,6,7,8
as returning nines (or reversed order if you're wedded to existing 18 as finishing hole). Would they fit in terms of playability, rhythm, etc?

Quite nice clockwise routings for us, ahem, 'faders'....NOT!

Everyones's a bloody critic, right? ;D

 ;)
FBD.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2006, 11:50:27 AM by Martin Bonnar »
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wolf Point Club
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2006, 12:01:22 PM »
Jeff,
Yes, that bunker can be drained....  :)
The highest elevation is 36ish.

I wonder about 7 also, but there is a gentle rise and we have only cleared on the west side of the creek.  7 may come out completely different - I like to say it has a lot of wiggle room.

Martin,
I had come up with about a dozen routing options, all relatively easy walks.  So yes, you can play them any way you like.
As for the fit and rythym, I think as numbered will be best, but I am open to experimenting.
I think 5 would be a fun finisher, alongside the clubhouse like NGLA.
Then again maybe I like 18 as my finisher, so I can say I did something Tom Doak never did, it is short.  :)

18 does also have quite a bit of flexability in tee location including overall length changes - going back to my answer on why would anyone play to the right.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Wolf Point Club
« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2006, 12:38:42 PM »
Some agronomic answers for inquiring minds.
The entire course will be plated with sand/sandy loam. We have ample amounts and although it's not a high perc sand it will be a fine growing medium. I'm partial to a top soil with some organics and water retention properties anyhow, so even though some white coats may say its not the best...I like it.

The drainage plan/installation is my primary focus at this time. Mike created a very detailed drainage plan, and I've added to it where I felt more drainage was necessary. I'd rather add it now then later, and I haven't been shy about expanding the plan. However, most of the drains in the turf are very small; usually the drain grates will be 4 inches, while the drains around the perimeter tend to be larger. So, yes, Jeff that bunker and everything else will drain just fine. We've had about 10 inches of rain in the last two weeks and where we have basins we can work today.

The clay sub soil is a bitch to work, but I believe we've found a very novel way of getting it into wrinkled, yet maintainable shapes without the usual effort required to shape a heavy soil.

Mike and I designed the irrigation system...with some technical help from Rainbird. Everything was sized based on a deep, infrequent irrigation management plan. Our goal is to water about every 4th night during dry periods. So the system is sized to allow about 1/4th of the golf course to be watered, heavily, each night. We'll see how it works as we don't want the course to play differently from hole to hole. I think I have a good plan as I've done this before, but I'll wait to get more specific, if anyone cares to know, until after I've actually managed the course for awhile.  

The greens will be built out of the same soil as everything else. So, the entire course will have like soils...something I was hoping for...thank God we've got a client who is willing to take chances. USGA greens would have cost about 500K more...and that's a conservative estimate. We're a long ways from any good sand pits.

Greens will be an ultradwarf...and very challenging with a target speed of 9.5 to 10 on the stimp (but we will not own one so we'll guess ;D)

Through the green is one type of bermuda...mowed close 1/2 inch to 3/8ths. So all the bermuda will either be greens height...or fwy height. 2 heights of cut.

Perimeters will be revegetated with a warm season mix that will include buffalo grass, native bahias and some other coastal grasses.

We'll try to grow lean, dry turf. We'll mow with volume equipment. We want the course to look nice...but we will not own an edger.    
If anyone has specific questions about how we plan to maintain the course I'm happy to answer as long as you realize it's only a plan and reality may be different.

It's been fun to work with Mike as he's given me a lot of freedom...the client is great and to say he's chomping at the bit is an understatement. I’ve had a good time with Joe Hancock as he has come down and shaped a few weeks for us and he'll be back soon.

All for now.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2006, 06:05:23 PM by Don_Mahaffey »

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wolf Point Club
« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2006, 01:17:07 AM »
The rain has stopped, and we are back hard at it tomorrow.

I hope y'all have some more questions.

Don didn't think that the "infernio" bunker was indicitive of our work.  It was more a fun activity to spruce up one saturday.
Which I agree....

So some pictures more indicitive...
Joe Hancock and Don:


A live oak and the well drillers at dusk:
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

tonyt

Re:Wolf Point Club
« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2006, 05:37:04 AM »
Mike,

Loving this thread, and appreciate the well presented routing diagram which is still a joy to scan over for the tenth time. The shorter tees look great, the shared fairway zones (not just in practical use but no doubt also in less used zones that still engender the tie-in feel), and the ability to lull a player with width and provide differing angles among other things. Bravo, and all the best with the ongoing work.

Tony

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wolf Point Club
« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2006, 05:41:50 AM »
Don,
did you have a good time at SeaWorld?
Or, did 'somebody else go and all you got was this lousy t-shirt?' ;D

FBD.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2006, 06:44:09 AM by Martin Bonnar »
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Jason McNamara

Re:Wolf Point Club
« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2006, 06:34:57 PM »
Mike -

Will there ever be a reason to play left of the tree halfway up #4?    In other words, play #4 up the #5 fairway on purpose in order to get to a tricky back-right flag?

I only ask because iirc, this course will not have that much traffic.

Jason

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wolf Point Club
« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2006, 10:55:46 AM »
In me best Warren Zevon howl...AAAAOOOUUUUUUU

I don't think I have ever seen pictures of faces that look more happy.

What a story.

Mike, Do you think you will get another job with this much freedom?

Congrats.

P.s. Anyone see Lon Chaney dancing?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Steve Curry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wolf Point Club
« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2006, 11:18:02 AM »
Looks like Joe won the sucking it in contest.  ;)

Tough question, How does one get a Hat?

Looks awesome and like a great time.

Best,
Steve

Ben Cowan-Dewar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wolf Point Club
« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2006, 12:42:24 PM »
Mike,
Given that the style of golf you are creating with that much width must be relatively original in Texas, how did you determine your bunker style? Were the ones pictured intended when that earth was moved, or created after it was in place?

Looks like an interesting project and I hope I get to see the course in strong wind to test out the width.  ;)

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wolf Point Club
« Reply #45 on: October 19, 2006, 12:50:04 PM »
FBD,
 ;D

Tony,
Thank you very much.
I take wandering the routing in a picture as a huge compliment.  I enjoy the same exercise a lot more on some courses than others.

Jason,
Originally I had a bunker where that tree is in the 4th fairway.  But that tree turned out looking a little nicer once the brush was cleared, so I left it.  It acts as more of a containing target than I would have liked, when compared to a bunker, but if you do go left on the hole, you will never make a 4.

Adam,
Obrigado.
I appreciate your sentiment.
"Do I think I will get another job with this much freedom?"
What kind of softball / powderpuff question is that?
My answer: I am really going to try to get / create this much freedom every time I work.
Any tougher more thought provoking questions? or are you all enlightened out from your season?
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Wolf Point Club
« Reply #46 on: October 19, 2006, 01:04:48 PM »
FBD,
Are you kidding? I'm building a golf course in the middle of nowhere. The wife and kids took a vacation and sent me a shirt. I'm trying to teach these Texans how to dress, but so far all I get is funny looks.

Steve,
I think Joe was trying a lot harder...I've seen that look on his face before...just before he sprinted into the nearby woods.

Adam,
We're having a blast, and really are living the dream of creating exactly what we want. I hope there are more jobs like this one in Mike's future...but methinks they're few and far between.

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wolf Point Club
« Reply #47 on: October 19, 2006, 03:04:02 PM »
Ben,
Merci.
At best some of the locations of the bunkers were generallly planned in spots, and were dug after some shaping.
Others were abandoned as they weren't needed for strategic reasons, the ground movement was enough.
Some have popped up in some alternative and interesting locations.

The style.
My favorite looks have been heath.  Unfortunately I have never been to visit the great ones, like Alwoodley, Swinley, Berkshire, or New Zeland.  But pictures posted here in the forum and in Ran's reviews have been most helpful.  Separately and specifically Mark Rowlinson send a treasure trove of his pictures that have been very inspirational.
I have found some materials that will hopefully replicate the heath vegetation.  I have also found that the looks of many of the heath bunkers were greatly accentuated by the vegetation, in other words, without some of the vegetation they would look plain.  So I have and plan on being a little more intricate so in spots that don't have my Texas heath, they will still look nice or crunchy.

Redanman,
Dank u.
Did you get a gander at your namesakelike #6.  If the land wasn't perfect for it I wouldn't do it, but it is perfect so we are.  :)

Yes, the green and wind will be major influencers as to which fairway to play.  We have a long way to go before we get to 18.

Adam & Don,
Upon a little more reflection, I want to expand on my answer to the freedom I've enjoyed.  Adam I'm starting to think that wasn't such a powder puff...

Here is my analogy:
In the past many architects said all the land is gone for great golf courses.  I think we all agree that was a myth.

I bet many architects would have found Wolf Point to not have the freedom that I have enjoyed, and I think I can continue to do that with new clients.  A key is going to have the ability to build a course resourcefully / economically so those "alternative" clients can get something excellent.
The big clients may also have some freedom that some won't find.

Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wolf Point Club
« Reply #48 on: October 19, 2006, 07:25:28 PM »
Steve,
I think Joe was trying a lot harder...I've seen that look on his face before...just before he sprinted into the nearby woods.

Don't let Don fool ya...I'm buff. ;D

Besides, I don't come to Texas with my system acclimated to Heineken Light for lunch, Dos Equis at the owners after work, then finally a few Negra Modelo's with my "Fish Cancun" for dinner....usually around 9 pm. Damn straight I sprint for the woods! :o

Now I'm really, really anxious to get back down there!

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wolf Point Club
« Reply #49 on: October 19, 2006, 07:46:05 PM »
D, J and M,
all I can say is that there are 1497 other guys/gals on this board who wish they were there. None more so than me!
That has to be the happiest construction site I have ever seen.
MacKenzie Speed (you'll know what I mean)

FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.