News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HS Colt
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2006, 02:13:04 PM »
From Bunkers, Pits & Other Hazards...thanks to Mark Fine and the other works mentioned here as our reference...

Harry Shapland Colt (1869-1951)

   Born in England, Colt was a lawyer turned golf architect. His first parley into design was with Doug Rolland at Rye Golf Club in England. A fine golfer all his life, Colt went on to design or remodel hundreds of courses including many of the best in the world. His longtime partner, C. Alison, worked with him on a majority of these projects.

   Quotes:

   “I firmly believe that the only means whereby an attractive piece of ground can be turned into a satisfying golf course is to work to the natural features of the site in question.” From The Book of the Links: A Symposium on Golf (1912)

   “The characteristics required of a hazard are that it should be difficult but not impossible to play out of; that it should not be a cause of lost balls; and that strokes played out of it should be calculable as regards strength and direction, and should depend for their success on skill and not on brute force alone.”  From Some Essays on Golf Course Architecture by Colt and Allison.

   “The diagonal hazard provides sport for everyone and the subsequent scheme of a hole can give advantage to the one who bites off the biggest slice of the hazard…”

   “A bunker stretching right across the course should always be avoided, and, unless there are natural hazards, ‘pot’ bunkers are preferable to others.”

   — Colt believed a course should start off with a sympathetic frame of mind for the weak, and at the same time be as severe as he likes with the first-class player.  
   — Believed that a test of accuracy must also be provided for tee shots. The player must learn to take a line, and not just blaze away at right angles to the teeing ground. Requiring accuracy off the tee could also be enforced by placing the hazards near to the green, even when there may be no bunkers off the tee.
   — He favored distinctive features so a golfer would go away remembering each hole individually.
   — Disliked blind shots, though he realized they were sometimes unavoidable.
   — Used diagonals on carry shots to offer safer options and a risk/reward decision.
   — Used center hazards with safe paths down the sides.
   — Believed “a good sprinkling of lateral hazards” is necessary to test accurate driving.
   — Avoided overuse of any one type of hazard.
   — Two “non-hazards” that Colt loved were plateau greens and “hummocky” ground. He felt a narrow plateau for a green or a few hummocks in front of one will very likely cause as much trouble and amusement to a player as a gaping chasm stretching across the line of play.
   — Liked turf hollows as well as mounds because they provide for difficult stances and lies
   — Advocated variety in the shapes and sizes of bunkers. He hated symmetrical pots, or banks, or humps.
   — Worked at making artificial hazards not look artificial.
   — On short holes in particular, he supported the use of water hazards if nothing more than for the sake of variety.
   — His most common natural hazards were sand, heather, long grass, gorse, and water.  
   — The reward and penalty for negotiating a hazard should be in proportion to one another.  
   — Justified deeper, but escapable, bunkers near the green as these shots are short.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Sean_Tully

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HS Colt
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2006, 02:14:42 AM »
Here are some items that I have on Colt. I am a big fan of old adverts and the info that they contain and the timeframe they cover.


Colt in 1913


August 1914 advert


He was one of the leaders of a new and more prevalent bunker construction that was more natural.


Interesting in the mention of C.H. Alison and Lavis as the American branch in 1927. Not familiar with Lavis. From this time frame is it safe to say that Colt was in Japan.


Addition of Morrison in a 1929 advert.

I have question to when Colt and Alison developed a friendship. In The AoG it is mentioned that they met at Stokes Poges when Colt was laying out the course. I have a couple of references to Alison playing on the Oxford and Cambridge Golf Society in America and in England in 1903. At the same time Colt is playing on the Sunningdale team that played against the OCGS(1903 is my reference), but not with Alison in the match mentioned. Seeing how small the golfing fraternity was, it seems highly likely that their paths would have crossed at this earlier period before Stokes Poges.

Tully

T_MacWood

Re:HS Colt
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2006, 10:37:11 AM »
Sean
You are probably right. Colt was a founding member of the Oxford & Cambridge Golfing Society in 1896 and I think Alison entered Oxford around 1901...so its likely they met around that time.

TEPaul

Re:HS Colt
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2006, 11:36:48 AM »
One sort of wonders what Colt thought about natural or sheet drainage with those bunkers above.

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HS Colt
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2006, 04:07:01 PM »
Let's be practical.  Tom Doak and others managed to publish an authoritative book about MacKenzie.  We have Chris Clouser on Maxwell and Philip Young on Tillinghast.  We also have RTJ on RTJ, Fazio on Fazio, Nicklaus on Nicklaus.  

On this site we know what a major and lasting force in GCA was Colt.  Who is actually going to take the risk of publishing a book about Colt, let alone rewarding its author for the work and time put in researching the enormity of Colt's projects and achievements?  It is either going to be a work of utter dedication and self-sacrifice on behalf of the author, or of finding an entrepreneur wise enough to value Colt's work to fund the publication of what is, let's face it, a minority interest.

That is why we should encourage Paul Turner, who starts off with many chapters' advantage over the rest of us as far as Colt is concerned, to share his scholarship in print.  

I am more than willing to put my experience as an author and editor at his disposition (or at that of anyone else who wishes to publish a work of GCA scholarship) without fee if it leads to an authoritative work of undeniable scholarship.

Noel Freeman

Re:HS Colt
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2006, 03:47:40 PM »
Mark

Thanks.  It's stalled a bit...too much other stuff going on... I'll get back to it.  As Tom states, it's a daunting task; so many courses particularly if you include all the Alison and Morrison courses.

I have a lot of historical info and several kind GCAers have helped compile some of the most interesting stuff.   Most of it consists of magazine articles, old club handbooks with historical pics, and a few copies of plans/reports.  Also have a load of modern pics (taken by me mostly) of various quality.  I think I have a good handle on what was done and where but the company's archives appear to be scattered all over the place and are way to expensive when occasionally up for auction.  I don't have anywhere near as much detailed plans etc as say Wayne and Tom have for W Flynn.  

How much do you need for a book?  When do you think, that's enough or I'll never get this done?  My wife thinks i should just get something done! But it would be easy to botch the job and a lot of the current published info is inaccurate..  I think I need some help with writing to make it  readable, Strunk and White!?  

Colt in particular deserves a detailed book; he was one of the few who virtually invented the profession.

An extended trip (or move back?) to UK would be useful.  Apart from Alison's work, which is mostly here in the US, the bulk is in the UK.

Martin

That's some find. If anybody could visit the lady in East Hendred that would be super.  She's probably the last direct link to the men/company.  

PS

I posted many of the old photos a few years ago on GCA but the web host is no longer valid, apart from the Hirono pics, and a few others I think.  No permanence with the web and discussion groups but it was fun at the time.


*Paul-- once you start changing nappies in a few weeks, GOOD LUCK COMPADRE!!! for writing your novella on HS.. I think it is almost two books b/c Alison demands his own book, he deserves it...

And btw, I've been waiting for this book almost as long as I've been waiting for Jim Reilly to come out of retirement and back to this site, although he told me he's scared of having to duck any thrown 3 woods by someone you know   :o :o

But as to your book I leave you to the words of Goethe and get going already! Chandra is right!


Goethe--
Lose this day loitering, 'Twill be the same story Tomorrow -- and the next more dilatory. Then indecision brings its own delays, and days are lost lamenting overdays! Are you ernest? Seize this very minute! What you can do, or dream you can - begin it! Courage has genius, power and magic in it. Only engage, and the mind grows heated. Begin it, and the work will be completed

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HS Colt
« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2006, 03:27:27 PM »
Brief Update:
We are progressing rather well with our attempts to speak with the lady from Colt's office. She has agreed to a meeting.

Tony Muldoon and I are trying to tie it together. Tony has volunteered to visit, but might have a problem with schedules. Maybe either of the messrs Turner/Rowlinson might care to get involved? Please speak with either Tony and/or I. Whatever we decide, she has requested that only ONE visitor meets with her and we really need to respect her wishes.

Maybe we should start thinking about some Q's for her?

Bear in mind she is apparently now a very old, frail lady so no thoughts of paparazzi-style interrogation please!!!

cheers,
FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Phil_the_Author

Re:HS Colt
« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2006, 04:48:03 PM »
Martin, you asked, "Maybe we should start thinking about some Q's for her? Bear in mind she is apparently now a very old, frail lady..."

A few suggestions based upon my interviews with Tilly's 4 grand-children when I did his biography. All of them had vivid memories of him, the second youngest being Dr. Brown who many know. The other three are all lovely ladies 'well along in years' yet delightful to sit and talk with.

1- Don't interview her... have a chat with her. It will put her at ease and the more she enjoys the 'chat' the easier the memories will come out.

2- Since she has agreed to be interviewed it shows that she is probably more on the ball at her age than most might think. So trust what she says as truthful unless it is at great variance to established facts.

3- She will be able to remember emotional things better than factual points. You should spend the majority of your time talking about Colt the man and his relationships with others than asking her why he made a dogleg on a certain hole. Also, these types of questions will lead you in surprising directions because of those of Colt's contemporaries, especially other architects.

4- Ask her is she might know where documents may have ended up, especially correspondences.

5- Tell her things that you have learned about Colt that make him facsinating to you. This will illicit repsonses that may very well surprise you about his person and work.

6- Most importantly, have fun with her! This interview may serve as being the highlight of her last few years and will certainly provide her with many things that she can speak about to those that visit her. That too will help generate memories and information.

7- Stay in touch with her! Call every few weeks and let her know the progress being made and things that have been learned. Doing that with Tilly's family brought out some memories and anecdotes, even some great ones that actually didn't make it into the book, that they thought they had told me.

8- I almost forgot the most important thing... RECORD IT!

Enjoy the privilege and I hope this helps.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2006, 11:56:09 PM by Philip Young »

Mark_Guiniven

Re:HS Colt
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2006, 07:00:20 PM »
Can any of the Colt fans post these ones in higher-res?


Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HS Colt
« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2006, 09:53:37 PM »
Martin

Excellent...I'm stuck in the US may be back in Feb for a week but don't wait for me.  Who's the natural interviewer?

Philip's suggestions are excellent.  I'll think of some other, general questions, that she may be able to answer.

Do you have any idea when she worked for the firm?  Before or after WW2?
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HS Colt
« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2006, 09:17:41 AM »
Philip,
excellent suggestions. I'm sure whoever goes will be well prepared! The more ideas from the treehouse the better.

Paul,
Shame you can't be here. We will find a suitable substitute!
The lady, Mrs Goddard, worked pre-war in the office and then also in Colt's house after his wife passed away, so has YEARS to tell us about. She apparently had a stack of 'papers' regarding Colt, but has loaned them to someone and can't remember who. I hate to think what might be amongst them...and possibly lost!

I can't wait to hear the results of the meeting...!

FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

T_MacWood

Re:HS Colt
« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2006, 10:33:27 AM »
Ralph Pickering and Bruce Critchley were working on a Colt book a few years ago...perhaps they borrowed Mrs. Goddard's papers. And depending on when the borrowing occured, maybe Fred Hawtree.

I would hope Mrs Goddard could give a good sense of Colt's personality or at least his personality in his later years. Strengths, weaknesses, interests (like gardenening), habits, visitors, the good and the bad...whatever she wants to talk about.  

I'd ask her how and when she first met Colt and the circumstances around her hire.

I'd ask her what she knows or remembers about Alison, Morrison, Auguste Legouix and any other friends or associates she recalls (Isobel Dixey, Mrs. Waller and Mrs Olivia Hagger are names of locals mentioned in Colt & Co.). Miss Emily Smith who was his secretary for many years said Colt was never the same after his wife died.

I'd ask her about his home and office...any details she can remember about them (books, artwork, religious icons, booze, prized-possessions). Did he travel much during the years of her employment and how active was he designing.

What magazines and/or newspapers did he read...if any. Did he receive and send out much correspondence...from whom. Telephone?

I'd ask her if she knows of anyone else who might have information on Colt...perhaps his or his wife's family or someone connected to St. Amands.

How did he die.

Good luck.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2006, 11:17:51 AM by Tom MacWood »

T_MacWood

Re:HS Colt
« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2006, 11:20:28 AM »
Martin, you asked, "Maybe we should start thinking about some Q's for her? Bear in mind she is apparently now a very old, frail lady..."

A few suggestions based upon my interviews with Tilly's 4 grand-children when I did his biography. All of them had vivid memories of him, the second youngest being Dr. Brown who many know. The other three are all lovely ladies 'well along in years' yet delightful to sit and talk with.

1- Don't interview her... have a chat with her. It will put her at ease and the more she enjoys the 'chat' the easier the memories will come out.

2- Since she has agreed to be interviewed it shows that she is probably more on the ball at her age than most might think. So trust what she says as truthful unless it is at great variance to established facts.

3- She will be able to remember emotional things better than factual points. You should spend the majority of your time talking about Colt the man and his relationships with others than asking her why he made a dogleg on a certain hole. Also, these types of questions will lead you in surprising directions because of those of Colt's contemporaries, especially other architects.

4- Ask her is she might know where documents may have ended up, especially correspondences.

5- Tell her things that you have learned about Colt that make him facsinating to you. This will illicit repsonses that may very well surprise you about his person and work.

6- Most importantly, have fun with her! This interview may serve as being the highlight of her last few years and will certainly provide her with many things that she can speak about to those that visit her. That too will help generate memories and information.

7- Stay in touch with her! Call every few weeks and let her know the progress being made and things that have been learned. Doing that with Tilly's family brought out some memories and anecdotes, even some great ones that actually didn't make it into the book, that they thought they had told me.

8- I almost forgot the most important thing... RECORD IT!

Enjoy the privilege and I hope this helps.

9- Ply her with liquor.

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HS Colt
« Reply #38 on: November 05, 2006, 01:23:15 PM »
Happy to help, if any help is needed (both helping Paul on any Colt book and on the interview with the lady).

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HS Colt
« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2006, 11:14:11 AM »
Bump.

Gents,
thanks for kind offers of assistance. Paul is in the States at the moment so can't make it. Tony/Sean/Frank - maybe we need a knockout Stableford to decide who goes. Perhaps as the lady is VERY old I was wondering if one of our more - shall we say - 'elderly statesmen' might care to take up the challenge....?

Remember, she has requested only one visitor. We really need to maximise our opportunity, as it were.

FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Ed Tilley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HS Colt
« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2006, 12:19:35 PM »
Re the Colt Assoc website:
Has anyone had any contact with them recently? I tried to elicit a response to a query but have had no reply from them.

The website also looks like it hasn't been updated in a while.

Although, I thought the pic of his headstone was a fine touch.



FBD.

Wouldn't you know it - it appears that Harry Colt is buried not two miles from my house and I never knew. Funny that he lived very close to Frilford Heath golf course but, per the history of the club, had no hand in it's design.

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HS Colt
« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2006, 01:15:39 PM »
Bump.

Gents,
thanks for kind offers of assistance. Paul is in the States at the moment so can't make it. Tony/Sean/Frank - maybe we need a knockout Stableford to decide who goes. Perhaps as the lady is VERY old I was wondering if one of our more - shall we say - 'elderly statesmen' might care to take up the challenge....?

Remember, she has requested only one visitor. We really need to maximise our opportunity, as it were.

FBD.
Martin,

I think someone like Mark Rowlinson should go.  This is not an interview that will be done in one go.  It will have to be done over about a year with lots and lots of tea drank.

I am also prepared to do it if needed.  

I reckon she will only manage an hour at a time at the most.

Brian
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HS Colt
« Reply #42 on: November 19, 2006, 02:53:19 PM »
Bump.

Gents,
thanks for kind offers of assistance. Paul is in the States at the moment so can't make it. Tony/Sean/Frank - maybe we need a knockout Stableford to decide who goes. Perhaps as the lady is VERY old I was wondering if one of our more - shall we say - 'elderly statesmen' might care to take up the challenge....?

Remember, she has requested only one visitor. We really need to maximise our opportunity, as it were.

FBD.
Martin,

I think someone like Mark Rowlinson should go.  This is not an interview that will be done in one go.  It will have to be done over about a year with lots and lots of tea drank.

I am also prepared to do it if needed.  

I reckon she will only manage an hour at a time at the most.

Brian

Mark Tony et al....,
Any progress, word, news?
-JM

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HS Colt
« Reply #43 on: November 19, 2006, 05:09:43 PM »
James, and all the Coltists herein,
Tony is trying to schedule something in the next couple of weeks. He's been kinda busy with other commitments (life, work, family, you know the kind of thing...!)
Hopefully, he can update us with some interesting snippets very soon after that.
I know I can hardly wait...
I'm sure Brian would make special trips over from the frozen north if need be! See you at TOC in March, mate?

FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

TEPaul

Re:HS Colt
« Reply #44 on: November 19, 2006, 06:41:17 PM »
Paul, Martin, Ed, Brian, James et al;

As far as this USGA architecture archive is concerned, what kind of info do you have that can be used? Or can you direct us to it? Where do you suppose most original material of any kind on Colt is? Can you guys help? I think Colt has to be considered in the top three or so of all time. We need any info available---eg leads etc.

« Last Edit: November 19, 2006, 06:42:10 PM by TEPaul »

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HS Colt New
« Reply #45 on: November 19, 2006, 07:29:26 PM »
peake, m.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2009, 05:02:10 AM by JMorgan »

TEPaul

Re:HS Colt
« Reply #46 on: November 20, 2006, 10:14:14 AM »
James:

I know the USGA has that beautiful album of PVGC that Crump must have sent to Colt.

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HS Colt
« Reply #47 on: November 20, 2006, 11:03:42 AM »
James:

I know the USGA has that beautiful album of PVGC that Crump must have sent to Colt.

If I tell them I know you, Tom, do you think they'll let me "borrow" it?  ;D ;)

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HS Colt
« Reply #48 on: November 20, 2006, 04:23:46 PM »
Tom and James

As far as I'm aware, the Pine Valley photo book is the only Colt memorabilia the USGA owns; it was a nice find (although I think Tom found a letter in the Greens section).  But last time I visited the library it had been relocated and I couldn't find it again!

I don't know of anyone who has collected a significant amount of original Colt memorabilia, or where the bulk of it went after the company was liquidated (I assume at Morrison's death)  But items do occasionally come up for auction at tough prices.

I have a lot of copied information and modern photos but still much more out there, I'm sure.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Mike_Cirba

Re:HS Colt
« Reply #49 on: November 20, 2006, 04:31:19 PM »
Martin, you asked, "Maybe we should start thinking about some Q's for her? Bear in mind she is apparently now a very old, frail lady..."

A few suggestions based upon my interviews with Tilly's 4 grand-children when I did his biography. All of them had vivid memories of him, the second youngest being Dr. Brown who many know. The other three are all lovely ladies 'well along in years' yet delightful to sit and talk with.

1- Don't interview her... have a chat with her. It will put her at ease and the more she enjoys the 'chat' the easier the memories will come out.

2- Since she has agreed to be interviewed it shows that she is probably more on the ball at her age than most might think. So trust what she says as truthful unless it is at great variance to established facts.

3- She will be able to remember emotional things better than factual points. You should spend the majority of your time talking about Colt the man and his relationships with others than asking her why he made a dogleg on a certain hole. Also, these types of questions will lead you in surprising directions because of those of Colt's contemporaries, especially other architects.

4- Ask her is she might know where documents may have ended up, especially correspondences.

5- Tell her things that you have learned about Colt that make him facsinating to you. This will illicit repsonses that may very well surprise you about his person and work.

6- Most importantly, have fun with her! This interview may serve as being the highlight of her last few years and will certainly provide her with many things that she can speak about to those that visit her. That too will help generate memories and information.

7- Stay in touch with her! Call every few weeks and let her know the progress being made and things that have been learned. Doing that with Tilly's family brought out some memories and anecdotes, even some great ones that actually didn't make it into the book, that they thought they had told me.

8- I almost forgot the most important thing... RECORD IT!

Enjoy the privilege and I hope this helps.

9- Ply her with liquor.

10 - Might I suggest Waterboarding if the old windbag doesn't cooperate and tell us what we want to know.  ;)

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back