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JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
HS Colt
« on: October 12, 2006, 12:51:27 PM »
I checked the Colt Association website to see if there are any good reference materials, books, etc. on Mr. Harry Shapland and came up wanting.  Has anyone done a Colt bio, or can anyone recommend good source material?  Thanks.

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HS Colt
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2006, 01:17:18 PM »
James,

Colt & Co. written by Fred Hawtree in the early 1990's. I believe it is out of print and difficult to get a copy of (I am looking myself).

TK

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HS Colt
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2006, 01:20:11 PM »
Just thought of an article on Colt written by GCA'er Brian Phillips which appeared in one of the issue of Golf Course Architecture magazine (not to be confused with the Australian Golf Architecture). I do not have them in front of me, but I'll check which issue when I get home and update this post if somebody doesn't correct me first.

TK

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HS Colt
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2006, 02:07:59 PM »
Tyler and James,

The article I wrote was in Vol.2 of GCA by Paul Daley.

I own a signed copy of the Colt & Co. book but I am not really willing to lend it out.  Many do really like the book but being a Colt fanatic I really enjoyed reading the letters between the partners of Colt & Co.

I have a pdf of the article if I can find it.  I am sure that Paul would not mind be sending it to you as he has said that I can publish it on my website. I have not done that yet.

Brian.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2006, 02:08:39 PM by Brian Phillips »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HS Colt
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2006, 02:19:40 PM »
I also have a signed copy of Colt & Co.  A very disjointed read.  I agree that the best part of the book are the letters etc at the back of the book.

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HS Colt
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2006, 02:58:11 PM »
Thanks guys... Brian, if you don't mind, a pdf of your chapter would be wonderful -- and easier to carry around than Vol. 2 from Paul Daley's series.  Don't worry about lending a copy of the Hawtree book.  I greatly appreciate the thought, however.   :)

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HS Colt
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2006, 03:12:04 PM »
There was an article on Colt by Bruce Critchley and one onn restoring Colt by Martin Hawtree in issue 1 (July 2005) of Golf Course Architecture, the magazine edited by Adam Lawrence.  www.golfcoursearchitecture.net.
I'm sure they would still have copies for sale.

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HS Colt
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2006, 03:32:43 PM »
Thanks, Mark.  My wife and I will try to come see you at St Barts, if we can rearrange our crazy schedules by the end of the month.  Pls also let me know -- I guess on the other thread -- if you're planning a public get-together in NYC with any of the other GCAers.  :D

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HS Colt
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2006, 06:09:59 PM »
Beautifully put, Mark.

As everyone knows, I utterly ADORE Ally MacK but Henry Shap intrigues me beyond even him.

For me, his work possesses the qualities which TOTALLY epitomise the essence of golf course architecture.

Al could have had no better mentor.

A visit to Swinley is like walking into York Minster or seeing the Great Pyramid for the first time. Genuinely mind-altering!

I'm sure Donald Steel is a most amiable fellow and a thoroughly decent chap, but woe betide him if ever I meet him on the first tee of the Eden....

FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HS Colt
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2006, 06:50:04 PM »
We simply have to encourage and support our esteemed GCA colleague, Paul Turner.  He knows more about Colt than anyone else I have encountered.  There was talk of a Bruce Critchley book about Colt, in some way attached to Stoke Park/Poges.  That seems to have died a death.  Given Paul's detailed knowledge that is probably a good thing.  What we now need to do is to find (and fund?) him enough time to get the material into a for that a publisher can deal with.  Of course, we need to find him a pubisher, as well.

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HS Colt
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2006, 07:42:43 AM »
Bump.

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HS Colt
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2006, 07:58:16 AM »
Re the Colt Assoc website:
Has anyone had any contact with them recently? I tried to elicit a response to a query but have had no reply from them.

The website also looks like it hasn't been updated in a while.

Although, I thought the pic of his headstone was a fine touch.



FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

T_MacWood

Re:HS Colt
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2006, 08:12:16 AM »
I wouldn't think finding someone to publish a book on Colt would be difficult. The difficult part would be writing the book...his career was so long, with so many great designs, and he and his associates were active everywhere, it would be (and is) a massive project...daunting.

The question is do you take the years necessary to thoroughly research his activities (as Paul has been doing) or do you write a less comprehensive book sooner?

I say take your time.


Chris_Clouser

Re:HS Colt
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2006, 08:35:26 AM »
Tom,

You obviously have not tried to have a book published lately have you?  Let alone a biographical golf book...

wsmorrison

Re:HS Colt
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2006, 08:38:15 AM »
I agree with you, Tom.  A comprehensive history of Colt, my favorite architect despite some who would argue differently, is a necessary project.  However, a photographic essay in a coffee table book format such as recently done by Jim Finegan (without the places to stay and visit) could be done rather soon and would be fascinating and instructive with a modicum of text.  It would probably sell far better than a biographical tome.

I agree with Chris.  According to our publisher, the golf architecture book market is soft right now as there have been so many done in the past few years.  Maybe when our Flynn book comes out next holiday season, there will be some improvement in the market.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2006, 08:42:06 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HS Colt
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2006, 11:17:29 AM »
James, the Greens super at Prestbury GC in Cheshire, England is a Colt nut.  He has spent years studying him and restoring the bunkering and greens at Prestbury.  He is great fun.  He would be a great resource.  Mark Rowlinson may remember his name and how to contact him I have misplaced his e-mail address.  
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HS Colt
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2006, 05:55:22 PM »
Talk about chills!

I have been in correspondence with Mr John Stevenson, who is the Archivist of the village museum in East Hendred - the village where Colt lived and died. Mr S is quite a 'senior' chap with lots of knowledge (obviously) of the local area.

In the course of our discussions, he dropped this amazing snippet in:

"The last lady who worked in his (Colt's) drawing office still lives in the village but regretfully is now getting pretty old."

WOW!

One of our Southern (England) colleagues should get over there. That would be a priceless 'Feature Interview', wouldn't it?

FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HS Colt
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2006, 07:36:46 PM »
Well this is very exciting then.  I'm all for contributing in any way possible, if only to avocationally put back on my editor/author's cap again or to do States-based legwork.   Not having a single source of Colt reference is a huge gap in the GCA annals, that is for certain.  

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HS Colt
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2006, 04:44:55 AM »
Talk about chills!

I have been in correspondence with Mr John Stevenson, who is the Archivist of the village museum in East Hendred - the village where Colt lived and died. Mr S is quite a 'senior' chap with lots of knowledge (obviously) of the local area.

In the course of our discussions, he dropped this amazing snippet in:

"The last lady who worked in his (Colt's) drawing office still lives in the village but regretfully is now getting pretty old."

WOW!

One of our Southern (England) colleagues should get over there. That would be a priceless 'Feature Interview', wouldn't it?

FBD.

Martin that's fascinating, what questions could we put to her to see if she could shed more info?

e.g.  A few ways she might be able to shed more light

Which 14 of the 27 holes, in today’s Princes, did Morrison work on?

Can she explain the significance of the blue pencil in the drawings?  This is referenced in the book by Morrison and Alison asking for good copies to be made up. She obviously wasn't alive when it was done, but show her the famous Map of Pine Valley and see what she made of the two colours.

Show her the list of accredited courses and see if she can remember any others?  Can she remember anything of Southend, NLE?

It would be great if Paul Turner could do this with the knowledge he already has.

Let's make GCA grate again!

TEPaul

Re:HS Colt
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2006, 08:05:39 AM »
I sure do agree with the posts on here that contend that not enough is known about Colt. Frankly, I feel the same about that entire contingent who are generally known as the early heathland contingent or the "Heathland Quartet"----eg Park Jr, Colt, Fowler, Abercrombie. Frankly I'd even include Alison although he came later and Park Jr is a bit different because he cut his teeth elsewhere and came from elsewhere.

I think far more should be known and recorded about that Heathland contingent not just because their work was so remarkably good and enduring but because they were the first to really foster an inland connection in type and style in golf architecture to the old world of natural strategic golf of the linksland, particularly TOC.

I'll tell you guys something who are really interested in compiling more info on Colt and these Heathland architects. The USGA's architectural Archive initiative has been approved but will not be budgeted for about one year due to the present construction of the new Arnold Palmer History Center behind Golf House that will open in 2008. A number of lists of the fifty most significant architects of golf architecture have been informally compiled and I guarantee you that on most all those lists these heathland architects are really high up there.

If you guys will begin to try to either compile info on these healthland architects and their work or at least identify the resourses and areas where info can be found I will promise you that this USGA Architecture Archive will help and assist the compiling of this material and information on these architects in one centralized place, and logically to be disseminated across the Internet.

If you really want to help in seeing this get done, just get in touch with me and we will all work to seeing that it gets done with the help and eventual resources of the USGA and their Museum and Library (Committee) which is in the process of ramping up bigtime in the area of golf course architecture and its history.

Don't let's just talk about it---let's do it. Now is the time and now we have the place and perhaps some potential resources to come.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2006, 08:11:02 AM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:HS Colt
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2006, 09:59:02 AM »
Tony
Interesting post. It would be great of she could recall specific projects but fifty plus years later I kind of doubt she would be able. I'd ask her more general questions and questions dealing with the Colt's personality and those of his associates. What kind of men were they? What were the hobies, habits and interests? How did they relate with another and their friends, former collegues and competitors? What was their process? Stuff like that.

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HS Colt
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2006, 10:06:33 AM »
Mark

Thanks.  It's stalled a bit...too much other stuff going on... I'll get back to it.  As Tom states, it's a daunting task; so many courses particularly if you include all the Alison and Morrison courses.

I have a lot of historical info and several kind GCAers have helped compile some of the most interesting stuff.   Most of it consists of magazine articles, old club handbooks with historical pics, and a few copies of plans/reports.  Also have a load of modern pics (taken by me mostly) of various quality.  I think I have a good handle on what was done and where but the company's archives appear to be scattered all over the place and are way to expensive when occasionally up for auction.  I don't have anywhere near as much detailed plans etc as say Wayne and Tom have for W Flynn.  

How much do you need for a book?  When do you think, that's enough or I'll never get this done?  My wife thinks i should just get something done! But it would be easy to botch the job and a lot of the current published info is inaccurate..  I think I need some help with writing to make it  readable, Strunk and White!?  

Colt in particular deserves a detailed book; he was one of the few who virtually invented the profession.

An extended trip (or move back?) to UK would be useful.  Apart from Alison's work, which is mostly here in the US, the bulk is in the UK.

Martin

That's some find. If anybody could visit the lady in East Hendred that would be super.  She's probably the last direct link to the men/company.  

PS

I posted many of the old photos a few years ago on GCA but the web host is no longer valid, apart from the Hirono pics, and a few others I think.  No permanence with the web and discussion groups but it was fun at the time.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2006, 10:09:02 AM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:HS Colt
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2006, 10:09:37 AM »
Tom I completely agree, and even thought I should have edited those things into my post. However if we could have a wish list (after all I'm getting to the point where it's easier to recall 45 years ago than yesterday) what specific Questions would you most like to see answered?

(After reading Darwin's book on Golf Courses I would love to know exactly what Colt did to the Old course at Sunningdale? I realise she couldn't possibly know so that's for a future thread).

Another point she might shed light on was how the business was wound up?  From memory Alison and Morrison died relatively suddenly whilst still active and pretty close to one another. If she was there to the end she might know what happened to any remaining paperwork?
« Last Edit: October 14, 2006, 10:10:35 AM by Tony Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

T_MacWood

Re:HS Colt
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2006, 10:20:12 AM »

(After reading Darwin's book on Golf Courses I would love to know exactly what Colt did to the Old course at Sunningdale? I realise she couldn't possibly know so that's for a future thread).

Another point she might shed light on was how the business was wound up?  From memory Alison and Morrison died relatively suddenly whilst still active and pretty close to one another. If she was there to the end she might know what happened to any remaining paperwork?


Tony
I'll bet you Paul knows what he did at Sunningdale.

Thats a very good point about what became of his papers. Alison died a year later...Morrison - who was younger - survived for a few years more.

Paul
I've undercovered some more interesting info on Colt...drop me a line.


TEPaul

Re:HS Colt
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2006, 10:34:35 AM »
It would be great if someone could interview that lady. But my advice would be to not waste any time at all in doing that interview.

I'd planned to interview PVGC's fifty year super, Eb Steineger in two weeks and he died within one week. I'd scheduled a meeting with Joe Dey to interview him on his vast and perhaps unique knowledge of the evolution of the Rules of Golf and he died the next week.

I did manage to interview George Crump's (who died in Jan 1918) caddie this summer. Just to look at a man who knew Crump sort of blew my mind since Crump died so long ago. And a few years ago I did interview a Shinnecock caddie who knew the club even before Flynn built this iteration in 1929. And I've found a man who lived at Oakmont who remembers the course from the early 1920s. He even caddied there for Sarazen. I also interviewed McGovern's daughter who remembered Ross like a favorite uncle. She knew nothing about his architecture but her recollections of him were wonderful.

I hate to be pessimistic in any way but the fact is when one interviews people who knew these men we talk about who worked and lived so long ago be somewhat prepared to be disappointed.

The reasons for that are various and sometimes unexpected. Crump's caddie who is 100 now was quite healthy and of sound mind indeed but the fact was he was just about completely deaf and I found myself virtually screaming at him (not a great way to carry on a good give and take interview) and he still had a hard time figuring out what I was asking or saying. So I tried to write what I was asking and I guess he's blind enough to things close to him to be able to read them. For instance you should have seen him trying to figure out the printed word---A.W. Tillinghast.  ;)

Connie Lagermann, Flynn's daughter who remembers things from the mid 1920s was another interesting case. She just didn't know that much about the architectural details of his work for the simple reason that she claimed he worked so hard and was away so often from home and his family the very last thing he wanted to do when he came home to his family was talk about the details of what he was doing when he was away from them which she claims he always felt so badly about.

My prediction and advice about that lady who worked for Colt would be the same as Tom MacWood's. Ask her about Colt, the man, and what he was like. If you asked her detailed questions about his architecture and his philosophy on it, my prediction would be she probably never knew much of that anyway.

Crump's caddie said something to me in this vein that was just so poignant, and frankly so touching. As I was leaving he said he was very sorry he couldn't help more with the things he knew I was after but that I must understand that the things a 9-10 year old boy caddying for Crump back then was thinking about were just very different from the things I was after and asking him about.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2006, 10:37:10 AM by TEPaul »

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